WI instead of allying with the Hurons, Algonquins, and Montagnais against the Iroquois, Champlain instead helps the Iroquois? In OTL, the Iroquois fought quite successfully against the French and their Indian allies for the next hundred years or so. WI the French are allied with the most successful nation in the area? What does it mean for the French? the Iroquois? future colonists like the English?
WI Samuel de Champlain Allies With the Iroquois?
- Thread starter 8Deer
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Without the friendship and trade(furs) of the Huron, Algonquin and Montagnai New France goes into an economic death spiral and never amounts to much.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Plus the Iroquois I believe were neutral and played the English and the French off one another to maintain its own independence.
Heh, I actually just read a book about Champlain over the weekend...
He basically allied with those particular tribes because those were the tribes closest to New France. The Mohawk happened to be attacking the tribes proximate to him and so he retaliated.
It should be noted, I feel, that he worked for peace between Indian nations, and between the nations and French settlers.
So, land Champlain, somehow, among the Iroquois and there you go.
He basically allied with those particular tribes because those were the tribes closest to New France. The Mohawk happened to be attacking the tribes proximate to him and so he retaliated.
It should be noted, I feel, that he worked for peace between Indian nations, and between the nations and French settlers.
So, land Champlain, somehow, among the Iroquois and there you go.
Sa'id, actually the Iroquis were staunch allies of the English for most of the colonial period, which result in tragic consequences during the American Revolution.
EvolvedSaurian, if New France isn't based on the St Lawrence can it even be a viable colony?
EvolvedSaurian, if New France isn't based on the St Lawrence can it even be a viable colony?
It (Quebec, specifically) wasn't a viable colony for many years, up until the last five years of Champlain's life. Acadia also started to turn around about then.
Maybe have the French preempt the Dutch in Manhattan, go from there? You're still a couple Algonquian tribes away from the Haudenosaunee, but there are no major groups in between, as far as I can remember. Plenty of fur possibilities in the Hudson Valley as well, and it might be easier to draw settlers.
Son of Songun
Banned
You could see more French activity in the Hudson bay area because they need go elsewhere for Furs. In the short run this is bad for them, but in the 7 Years war it could have big consequences.
Then New France(New York) is absorbed by the British as New Holland was and much earlier than New France(Quebec) was.
If anything the position is even more hopeless with less access to the fur trade and sandwiched between English colonies.
Barring a dramatic change in French policy there will be no change in settlers attracted, except that there may be fewer French willing to live within a day or two of English settlers on both sides.
Son of Songum, if they've tried to go for the Hudson River then Hudson Bay is far less accessible to France than the St Lawrence was.
If anything the position is even more hopeless with less access to the fur trade and sandwiched between English colonies.
Barring a dramatic change in French policy there will be no change in settlers attracted, except that there may be fewer French willing to live within a day or two of English settlers on both sides.
Son of Songum, if they've tried to go for the Hudson River then Hudson Bay is far less accessible to France than the St Lawrence was.
A lot of butterflies. Completely changes Native-French relations. Algonquin tribes that Champlain allied with were at war with the Iroquois, and Champlain helped kill some of their chieftains (via. rifle). It made the Iroquois hate him but gained the respect of local Algonquin tribes. Unfortunately, those tribes were dwindling anyway. If Champlain ends up finding Iroquois before Algonquin (not unthinkable) there's a good chance he'd help the Iroquois wipe them out, or perhaps negotiate a peace treaty between the Algonquins and the Iroquois.
Long term however it's going to change a lot. If the Iroquois remain French allied, British settlers are going to be very hard pressed to settle territory up areas like the Hudson. Iroquois raids penetrated far in there IOTL, but the Iroquois were nominally paid off by the British and sent to fight up north. With the aid of the Iroquois, up until maybe a Seven Years War-type analogue British settlement is going to be harassed and many colonists are going to be frustrated.
That's how I'd ballpark it anyway. I think in the short-term the support for the French would be huge, but in the long-term the Iroquois aren't necessarily married to them- and if the Iroquois remain with the French, assuming they have similar colonial attitudes to OTL, things might bode even worse for them if French colonies in NA aren't viable or are occupied again.
Long term however it's going to change a lot. If the Iroquois remain French allied, British settlers are going to be very hard pressed to settle territory up areas like the Hudson. Iroquois raids penetrated far in there IOTL, but the Iroquois were nominally paid off by the British and sent to fight up north. With the aid of the Iroquois, up until maybe a Seven Years War-type analogue British settlement is going to be harassed and many colonists are going to be frustrated.
That's how I'd ballpark it anyway. I think in the short-term the support for the French would be huge, but in the long-term the Iroquois aren't necessarily married to them- and if the Iroquois remain with the French, assuming they have similar colonial attitudes to OTL, things might bode even worse for them if French colonies in NA aren't viable or are occupied again.
???So he makes enemies of the nations immediately adjacent to him who can wipe out the French colony, and befriends nations 100s of miles away?
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