WI: Sahara remains Lush Greens?

So I remember watching a history channel episode a couple years back about the Sahara once being these fertile plains thousands of years ago. I had forgotten about it, but it came back to me today when me and my friend were talking about it, and I decided to look into it more.

About 5 or 6,000 years ago, the Sahara's climate changed over a couple hundred years from lush greens to the Sahara desert we know and love now, simultaneously with climate change across North Africa. There have been wet and dry periods in the Sahara over the past 30,000 years.

How large would the effects be if the Sahara remained wet, lush, greens? Could we see the center of civilization developing in the Sahara instead of in Egypt (if memory serves the people who founded Egyptian civilization had migrated from the once fertile Sahara though I'm probably wrong there) and Mesopotamia?
 
So I remember watching a history channel episode a couple years back about the Sahara once being these fertile plains thousands of years ago. I had forgotten about it, but it came back to me today when me and my friend were talking about it, and I decided to look into it more.

About 5 or 6,000 years ago, the Sahara's climate changed over a couple hundred years from lush greens to the Sahara desert we know and love now, simultaneously with climate change across North Africa. There have been wet and dry periods in the Sahara over the past 30,000 years.

How large would the effects be if the Sahara remained wet, lush, greens? Could we see the center of civilization developing in the Sahara instead of in Egypt (if memory serves the people who founded Egyptian civilization had migrated from the once fertile Sahara though I'm probably wrong there) and Mesopotamia?
civilization was already founded in sahel region. Does that count?
 
Unless there are some major rivers in this Alt-timeline Sahara, I don't think that it will beat the Nile or the Euphrates to popping out a civilization.

However, once those civilizations do start, I think that we will see civilization spread into the Sahara. Domestic cattle, wheat, and barley will spread very rapidly across the northern Sahara plains, while the plants in the Sahel crop package such as sorghum will develop faster ITTL in response to the cultural example set by the northern farmers. Of course, this assumes that those crops can even grow in this scenario-sorghum may never be domesticated, and instead yams will be domesticated earlier and further north, leading to an Africa that is dominated by *Nilo-Saharan farmers rather than *Bantu farmers.

In addition, once horses reach Egypt they will also spread extremely rapidly across the northern plain, reaching West Africa millennia sooner and prompting the development of geographically massive empires. There will be many more exchanges between Europe, Asia, and sub-Saharan Africa with more used land-based trade routes.
 
Unless there are some major rivers in this Alt-timeline Sahara, I don't think that it will beat the Nile or the Euphrates to popping out a civilization.

However, once those civilizations do start, I think that we will see civilization spread into the Sahara. Domestic cattle, wheat, and barley will spread very rapidly across the northern Sahara plains, while the plants in the Sahel crop package such as sorghum will develop faster ITTL in response to the cultural example set by the northern farmers. Of course, this assumes that those crops can even grow in this scenario-sorghum may never be domesticated, and instead yams will be domesticated earlier and further north, leading to an Africa that is dominated by *Nilo-Saharan farmers rather than *Bantu farmers.

In addition, once horses reach Egypt they will also spread extremely rapidly across the northern plain, reaching West Africa millennia sooner and prompting the development of geographically massive empires. There will be many more exchanges between Europe, Asia, and sub-Saharan Africa with more used land-based trade routes.

There really needs to be a timeline on this...
 
The Sahara was'nt Lush and Green in the sense of being Rainforest as much as it was basically vast grasslands similar to the Sahel, with some areas of condensed plantlife.
 

Zirantun

Banned
Haha, Chris Wayan's Turnovia, anyone?

I'm sure you guys have discussed his work before though...
 
Haha, Chris Wayan's Turnovia, anyone?

I'm sure you guys have discussed his work before though...

That's an exercise in theoretical planetary mechanics, the question here is about the Sahara remaining Sahelian rather than turning into a desert a few thousand years ago.
 
How about African Huns/Turks/Mongols? Herding in the Saharan grasslands and every now and then crashing into the sedentary agricultural regions on the periphery with breathtaking violence.
 
With the Sahara being Sahel-like grassland, civilization would probably still start in the Nile. However, the valley wouldn't be isolated as IOTL. The med and Africa would be far closer connected.

Would there be steppe warriors in the Sahara?
 
With the Sahara being Sahel-like grassland, civilization would probably still start in the Nile. However, the valley wouldn't be isolated as IOTL. The med and Africa would be far closer connected.

Would there be steppe warriors in the Sahara?

Herders are generally moved to the periphery of prime agricultural land, which is a start. When would domesticated horses reach Africa from western Asia?
 
There was at least one major river draining the mid Sahara, the upper Niger is all thats left of it. The Nile had several tributaries coming in from the Sahara, what would we call them the Red Nile and the Yellow Nile?
Look at some of the NASA pictures of the Sahara, you can see the old dried up river beds. One wonders if there would be a mid Saharan egyptian compediter.
 
One big thing to consider is that during the Green Sahara phase the Sahara is covered by massive lakes that rival (and at times exceed) the size of the Caspian Sea.

The below is a map showing the primary Megalakes and a map (only showing Megachad) of the climate during the height of the Green Sahara;

Green Sahara.png
 
Forget Africa- I think a remaining green Arabia would be more interesting. At the time that are first ancestors left Africa and traveled into the Arabian peninsular around 70,000 years ago, it was a green oasis, home to wide, lush grasslands and herds of ancient gazelles, and it is this that helped facilitate a massive population growth. But what if this remained green? Civilization may begin here as opposed to the more violotile Euphrates and Tigris, enabling longer, more stable harvests and perhaps a longer lasting civilization. Man kinds spread may be slower, as would the spread of agriculture, and with a series of relativity stable city states in place it is unlikely Islam ( or any of the other great monotheistic religions for that matter) would develop, and another one that's based on one "great mother" or based on a herd animal could develop.
Now, if that isn't the recipes for an interesting TL, i don't know what is.
http://www.enn.com/sci-tech/article/44333

http://www.mnn.com/lifestyle/arts-c...ian-artifacts-may-rewrite-out-of-africa-story
 
if the Sahara was still green, but still a rather dry grassland, I wonder if it wouldn't be a dryer version of the savannah to the south, same wildlife, etc. The Mediterranean strip is still likely to be 'different', since the climate is different. It's hard to see civilization developing there earlier than in the Fertile Crescent simply because of the lack of wheat and barley... presuming there isn't some similar species of large seeded grass there. Barring that, I'd still think that farming/civilization is more likely to develop in the Fertile Crescent first, then spread to Egypt, then further west. The Sahara is likely to be a vast livestock herders' paradise...
 
The best way to preserve the green and prevent the desert is to have less grazing happen, less depleted vegetation. Also, a suitably advanced civilization could irrigate the land.
 
Those additional rivers are really interesting. Given that in comparable river systems early civilizations came up we can probably expect the same to happen in that Libyan river system. Now that will be half way between Egypt and the greater Niger. Antiquity will be much more interesting...
 
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