WI: Russian Czar styles himself ERE

What if a Czar of Russia styled himself Emperor of the Romans, or of the Eastern Roman Empire?

Nothing really. I mean they already considered themselves the Third Rome and heirs of the Byzantine Empire, so besides another grandiose title (that will be ignored by Europe) it won't matter.
 
Western Europe: "Who's this guy?"

Yeah pretty much this. I mean Tsar meant Caesar in Russian, which pretty much meant Emperor. Not one European monarch recognized this. Calling themselves Emperor of the Romans/ERE would be at best propaganda for the Russians and/or Eastern Orthodox people, at worst he'd be considered crazy by the west (hell probably both).
 
I'm not an expert, but I understood that in Orthodox doctrine and theory, the Emperor had a special role in governing the church. I always assumed that the Tsar already took on that role with respect to the Moscow Patriarchate.

But I think claiming the title of Eastern Roman Emperor would mean claiming to take that role with respect to the main, Constantinopolitan Patriarch. That could have ramifications. It may lead to extra conflict with the Ottomans as compared to OTL.
 

Lateknight

Banned
Yeah pretty much this. I mean Tsar meant Caesar in Russian, which pretty much meant Emperor. Not one European monarch recognized this. Calling themselves Emperor of the Romans/ERE would be at best propaganda for the Russians and/or Eastern Orthodox people, at worst he'd be considered crazy by the west (hell probably both).

Why does matter what the west thinks? In the 15th century where basically at the same level of technology the Renaissance came during this time but took century's for it spread even though western Europe. Not to say that Western European will care Russia was beyond the horizon of most everyone there, but it will be important in Russia.
 
Why does matter what the west thinks? In the 15th century where basically at the same level of technology the Renaissance came during this time but took century's for it spread even though western Europe. Not to say that Western European will care Russia was beyond the horizon of most everyone there, but it will be important in Russia.

Would it really? I mean Tsar pretty much means Emperor. So for the matter of public consumption and propaganda Tsar would be more then enough.
 
By 1453 there was no Czar, Vasily II was Grand Duke of Muscovy at this time. Even if Vasily did declare himself Czar it would be taken as seriously as the old Eastern Roman Empire's claim, maybe a bit of lip service but their still schismatics. In the case of the Russians schismatics, that the Lithuanians and by extension, the Polish are going to have problems with. It didn't help that Vasily II was blinded at the time, so I don't think people would take a blind Roman Emperor seriously.
 
It didn't help that Vasily II was blinded at the time, so I don't think people would take a blind Roman Emperor seriously.

Hell going by the laws of the Byzantines, anyone with physical deformities were ineligible for the Imperial throne. Being blinded or having ones nose or lips or ears cut off meant you could say goodby to the Purple. So technically Russian Sovereign would be violating the old Empire's laws by making himself Emperor.
 

Lateknight

Banned
Would it really? I mean Tsar pretty much means Emperor. So for the matter of public consumption and propaganda Tsar would be more then enough.

That something I hadn't thought of your probably right however I think immediately saying what who the west think when disusing Russian history is wrong.
 
IIRC Peter the Great was addressed before the Senate by someone (the patriarch?) as 'Emperor of the East' as early as 1720/1722.

Also, Peter used a letter from HRE Maximilian to Ivan III wherein he was addressed as 'imperator' as proof for him claiming precedence over the reigning monarchs of Europe.

Although, the European courts refused to acknowledge the title of emperor of the east, since tbey feared Russia would use this as a way of dominating them much like the HRE did/had.
 
(...)

Also, Peter used a letter from HRE Maximilian to Ivan III wherein he was addressed as 'imperator' as proof for him claiming precedence over the reigning monarchs of Europe.

(...)

Precedence over all reigning monarchs, except one, HRE Maximilian, which as a fellow Emperor was his equal.
 
Yeah pretty much this. I mean Tsar meant Caesar in Russian, which pretty much meant Emperor. Not one European monarch recognized this. Calling themselves Emperor of the Romans/ERE would be at best propaganda for the Russians and/or Eastern Orthodox people, at worst he'd be considered crazy by the west (hell probably both).

The big question. Officially, the word Tsar (really - Emperor) comes from Caesar, but is it true? Why the Byzantine emperors in Russia called Caesar, but Tsar - called Tatar khans? Does not have this title more ancient origins? Russian ancestors were vassals of the Scythians, if not called Tsar Scythian lords?
 
What if a Czar of Russia styled himself Emperor of the Romans, or of the Eastern Roman Empire?
That is linguistically impossible as the Eastern Romans were called "Greeks" in Kievan Rus and later in Russia. That was a strong linguistic tradition.
So no "Roman".
And you can see that "Emperor of the Greeks" or "Emperor of the Greek Empire" is out of the question for many reasons, first of all because it would be laughable for the Russians and for the foreigners.

But no "emperor" as that word was never used in Kievan Rus and in old Russia. And no Caesar. Only Csar or Tsar or whatever you spell it in English - that is an old Slavic name for "Caesar" which was used in Kievan Rus and Russia. For example Constantinople was traditionally called "Tsargrad" as "the City of Tsar/Caesar".

Nothing really. I mean they already considered themselves the Third Rome and heirs of the Byzantine Empire, so besides another grandiose title (that will be ignored by Europe) it won't matter.
That is a widely spread misconception.
It is supposed as an axiom that ALL the Russians were thinking "we are the Third Rome, we are the heirs of the Greek Tsarstvo/Empire".
You'd be surprised that 99,9999% of the Russians never heard of the "Third Rome".
That was a conception of a few literate, learned people, mostly clergy which amused themselves with that idea, toyed with such conception in their pleasure time.

Yeah pretty much this. I mean Tsar meant Caesar in Russian, which pretty much meant Emperor. Not one European monarch recognized this. Calling themselves Emperor of the Romans/ERE would be at best propaganda for the Russians and/or Eastern Orthodox people, at worst he'd be considered crazy by the west (hell probably both).
In the Western Europe conception of the Roman Empire was something that happened with them on their land and which was theirs, known to them, was their history. For the Kievan Rus, for Russia "Roman/Greek Empire" was alien, was something on foreign territory of the foreign people.
When the Russian ruler in Moscow started to call himself "tsar" least of all he thought about the West. Actually he did not think about the East, South, North either. That title was only for internal consumption, for the Russian people inside Russian borders. Grand Prince of Moscow became too powerful and he looked around for a better cool title. Title "tsar" came handy - for more than half of millennia in Rus, Russia "tsar" was a title which meant "strong and glorious ruler". Majority of people with exception of a few learned book worms totally forgot that it derived from "Caesar"; usually the Mongol Khans were called "tsars" by the Russians as they were definitely strong, great rulers.
So when Moscow Grand Prince started to call himself "tsar" ALL Russians understood that as a challenge to hundreds years old Mongol domination - Now our Russian ruler is equal to Mongol "tsars" at last. Something like that.
The Russians did not care how the West would react to such title as "tsar". That was a miner problem of diplomatic translators/interpreters - these learned guys were sure that the right proper translation into European languages was "Kaiser"/Emperor. The Europeans thought it improper due to some funny (from Russian point of view) prejudices and traditions.
And that was never a big problem for the Russian diplomacy, just irritating nuisance.

By the way, a few defeated European Armies by the Russians were enough to convince these European guys that "tsar" meant "emperor". Funny, ain't it?
 
The whole "Third Rome" fad in Petrine\immediate pre-Petrine time IMO had its start in 1666 when Alexis Michailovich ordered the protocol of coronation of Byzantine Emperors. That was pretty much equal to assuming the style for internal "consumption".
Peter I merely rebranded what his dad did for Western consumation - Russian subjects did not understand the title of Emperor. It was "Caesar" or "Tsar" for them. The Emperor of HRE was styled in pre-Petrine Russian diplomatic correspondence as "Caesar of Romans".

Since 1666 all the Tsars were "crowned as Caesars and styled as Caesars" (as the saying about the duck goes). The Tsar in Moscow was "the Caesar" and he was crowned as one - so no confusion with lesser Tsar titles (Tsar of Kazan, Astrakhan and Siberia - by the way, I saw at least one TL where "Tsar of Siberia" was turned into a heir apparent title akin to say King of Romans, Prince of Asturias or Prince of Wales, and toyed with idea to introduce it in my own TLs). Emperor was just a "translation for Westerners to additionally explain).
 
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