WI:Russia annexes Polish Silesia, Galicia and Posen

[wolf_brother]

Poles are several time more numerous than Fins.

It was just an example. There are numerous others. Look at the Romanians, or the Magyars under the Hapsburgs. Or the Irish under the Brits. Or... etc, etc, etc. Just because you're "all in it together" doesn't mean you're automatically victorious. This isn't some Saturday morning cartoon.

 

[ctesiphon]

Larger Poland from the Vienna Congress ups the chances of it beating Russia in either 1830 or 1846.

I'm not exactly sure how a larger Poland guarantees a better chance of success rebelling against the Russians.

<explanation of how Polish chances are increased if all of them fight one enemy instead of three, and the other two are potential allies>

Again, there's no guarantee of success just because the Poles are united.

Moving goalposts much?

 

[kasumigenx]

Again, there's no guarantee of success just because the Poles are united. The Finns were fully under Moscow's thumb since 1809 and yet they never broke away until the Romanov regime fell apart in the February Revolution.

I think it is more likely that they will be given Autonomy just like Finland because of they will will have gratitude to Russia for uniting them from the earlier Partitions.

 

[ctesiphon]

I think it is more likely that they will be given Autonomy just like Finland because of they will will have gratitude to Russia for uniting them from the earlier Partitions.

They had that sort of autonomy, a separate Kingdom in personal union with Russia, with its own army and constitution. It ended with the failed November Uprising.

 

[wolf_brother]

Moving goalposts much?

Don't understand context, or differing points of view, or the English language, while being insulting much?

 

[kasumigenx]

They had that sort of autonomy, a separate Kingdom in personal union with Russia, with its own army and constitution. It ended with the failed November Uprising.

But I think there is less chances of revolt if the Romanovs reunited Poland and granted it autonomy at the same time.

 

[ctesiphon]

Don't understand context, or differing points of view, or the English language, while being insulting much?

Perhaps. I'll have to remember "guaranteed success" and "increased chance of success" mean the same thing. Thanks.

But I think there is less chances of revolt if the Romanovs reunited Poland and granted it autonomy at the same time.

The main reasons of their rebellion were:
-Tsar's government breaking Poliand's constitution,
-General butthurt.

None of those are gonna change if Congress Poland is enlarged a bit. Besides, in the eyes of the Poles, especially those who remember independence, over half of their country is still not united with Warsaw (including Wilno and, most likely, Lwow).

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by ctesiphon

None of those are gonna change if Congress Poland is enlarged a bit. Besides, in the eyes of the Poles, especially those who remember independence, over half of their country is still not united with Warsaw (including Wilno and, most likely, Lwow).

You're right about Wilno (Vilnius) but I thought Galicia was to be united with rest of Poland?
Not to mention Greater Poland (Wielkopolska), Galicia and Silesia added to Congress Poland make it at least twice as it was IOTL. That's a big bit.

Originally posted by wolf_brother

It was just an example. There are numerous others. Look at the Romanians, or the Magyars under the Hapsburgs. Or the Irish under the Brits. Or... etc, etc, etc. Just because you're "all in it together" doesn't mean you're automatically victorious. This isn't some Saturday morning cartoon.

Hungarians actually were quite close to break away from Habsburgs. It took Russian intervention to stop them, not to mention the fact the Hungarians also fought against Transylvanian Romanians at the same time. And later they were given a special status in Austria-Hungary to appease them.
And nobody said about bigger Congress Poland being automatically victorious against Russia. But it is obvious, that a much bigger country would have had much bigger chances.

 

[Kome]

Hungarians actually were quite close to break away from Habsburgs. It took Russian intervention to stop them.

Right, go ahead and side with the Poles Austria. It'll only cost you Hungary.

 

[wolf_brother]

But it is obvious, that a much bigger country would have had much bigger chances.

It is not obvious, and simply stating it is doesn't make it so. What, exactly, about a larger Congressional Poland will make it more likely to successful breakaway from the Russians' grasp than IOTL's Poles?

 

[Kome]

It is not obvious, and simply stating it is doesn't make it so. What, exactly, about a larger Congressional Poland will make it more likely to successful breakaway from the Russians' grasp than IOTL's Poles?

More manpower to use in a fight, more territory to for a revolt to fall back to, more territory the Imperial Army needs to occupy, etc.

 

[seraphim74]

What Kome said plus (as I mentioned before) a chance to get some foreign support. Since Austria doesn't occupy any Polish lands they can go for it. OTOH, I'm not sure if an absolutist Austria would support a kingdom overthrowing its king for not respecting the constitution. But - bigger army, more men, more territory. etc. - chances are indeed better. However I agree that better chances do not guarantee success.

 

[kasumigenx]

What Kome said plus (as I mentioned before) a chance to get some foreign support. Since Austria doesn't occupy any Polish lands they can go for it. OTOH, I'm not sure if an absolutist Austria would support a kingdom overthrowing its king for not respecting the constitution. But - bigger army, more men, more territory. etc. - chances are indeed better. However I agree that better chances do not guarantee success.

Another thing is that the Polish dialects would all be more uniform, the Podhale and Silesian dialects were quite different from the Standard Polish perhaps Poland will end up more homogeneous that OTL.

 

[Gregorius]

Many Poles were quite Russian-friendly before 1830(and some even after that).
If Russian kept Poland is larger and more important, Russians might be more interested in keeping the status quo, that existed in Congress Poland-separate constitution, army etc. Might be reformed to Polish kingdom but with one of the Russian princes crowned as king, Polish nobles would accept such compromise.|

Also since Russia didn't wage large scale settlement attempts like Germany/Prussia did, there will be less Germans than OTL. Although some Germanization settlement already occurred after First partition

-Tsar's government breaking Poliand's constitution,
-General butthurt.

Kosciuszko was originally interested in working with Russian Tsar after Congress of Vienna but refused when he learned that Kingdom of Poland(that was the official name of Congress Poland) was to be smaller than Duchy of Warsaw. If Russia creates larger Kingdom of Poland after Congress of Vienna, than there will be less resentment-and more larger stronger Poland might led to more conciliatory moves by Russian state.

 

[kasumigenx]

Many Poles were quite Russian-friendly before 1830(and some even after that).
If Russian kept Poland is larger and more important, Russians might be more interested in keeping the status quo, that existed in Congress Poland-separate constitution, army etc. Might be reformed to Polish kingdom but with one of the Russian princes crowned as king, Polish nobles would accept such compromise.

If the Poles were friendly and Russia controls Silesia, I think Russia could use Silesia as one of their Industrial Centers in their empire.

 

[carlton_bach]

Poles are several time more numerous than Fins.

The Russians still outnumber the Poles quite heavily. For an uprising to work, they will need outside support, though with Austria and Prussia having no stake in holding down the Poles, the chances of that do get better.

 

[Gregorius]

If the Poles were friendly and Russia controls Silesia, I think Russia could use Silesia as one of their Industrial Centers in their empire.

Congress Poland was one the industrial centres of Russian Empire in OTL.

For an uprising to work, they will need outside support

Larger Poland with its autonomy intact-less reason for uprising.

 

[kasumigenx]

Congress Poland was one the industrial centres of Russian Empire in OTL.


Larger Poland with its autonomy intact-less reason for uprising.

I think the Polish Silesians will be loyal to the Russians more, compared to the other Poles, I think it is possible that they will view Russia as their own savior from Austria, Prussia and from Germanization or Continuous Counter-reformation..

 

[seraphim74]

Originally posted by Gregorius

Many Poles were quite Russian-friendly before 1830(and some even after that).

AFAIK tsar Alexander I himself was quite popular among Poles - after all thanks to him (and prince Czartoryski) they had at least a nucleus of their own state. Had the Russian rulers (duke Constantine ands tsar Nicholas I) respected Polish constitution, there would have been no uprising, IMHO. Especially with Congress Poland being bigger than OTL.

 

[carlton_bach]

Originally posted by Gregorius


AFAIK tsar Alexander I himself was quite popular among Poles - after all thanks to him (and prince Czartoryski) they had at least a nucleus of their own state. Had the Russian rulers (duke Constantine ands tsar Nicholas I) respected Polish constitution, there would have been no uprising, IMHO. Especially with Congress Poland being bigger than OTL.

It's much the same story as in Finland and the Baltics, isn't it? Russian rule as such wasn't a big problem. Russification was.