WI : Rommel captured during Operation Crusader.

Hmm yes but let say he does join the new bundeswehr what rank will they give him and will he stay long?
Assuming he does, which is a big ask, he would probably be allowed to head up the whole thing considering his rank at time of capture.

Again, assuming he gets through the post-war Trials "clean" and the Allies allow him to even be considered to be let into the Bundeswehr, he would have to be offered the top job. And this is of course assuming that the rest of the war goes exactly as per OTL BTW.
 
It was approved in April 1942, but since it would take until July or August to muster the necessary forces and the invasion of Egypt happened they opted to throw everything instead into Egypt.


It was almost out of supplies by late summer 1942:


Ultimately it was Op. Pedestal in August that prevented the island from surrendering:


The AAA was even low on ammo IIRC and would have been suppressed by a large air and naval attack.

So no where near as serious as some of the other great sieges of WW2 which endured despite people dying of starvation in the streets!
 
It was approved in April 1942, but since it would take until July or August to muster the necessary forces and the invasion of Egypt happened they opted to throw everything instead into Egypt.

The Axis lost air superiority over Malta just ten days after the Hercules plan was agreed.

The invasion was never happening, it was starvation and surrender after failed summer convoys or nothing.
 
The Axis lost air superiority over Malta just ten days after the Hercules plan was agreed.

The invasion was never happening, it was starvation and surrender after failed summer convoys or nothing.
An invasion of Malta would have needed Italian Naval supremacy as well as Axis aerial supremacy, and that was never going to happen. The absolute best case scenario would have been the Italians trying their own Operation Mercury, maybe with German support, and suffering even heavier loses.

I don't see Malta getting any different of a treatment if Rommel is captured (as per the OP) and honestly the only thing I can think of as anyway meaningfully different in the war is that maybe the Allies have an easier time during Overlord with an even less well prepared Atlantic Wall to run into (provided the person who fills in for Rommel in this role isn't actually a hell of a lot better at organising something like that.)
 
I have made this point on other forums and I will just say again that I do not think an Axis capture of Malta in 1942 is quite the disaster for the Allies that it is generally made out to be (including a couple of rather poor AH books that make it the game changer that allows the great Rommel to capture Egypt):
  • In 1942 the British expended a lot of forces keeping Malta in the game. PEDESTAL alone saw one carrier and two cruisers sunk with another carrier earning an extended vacation in Virginia. No Malta to sustain and all of those forces devoted to supplying Malta get to cause trouble elsewhere.
  • A successful Axis invasion of Malta will be a casualty filled slugfest. Axis forces will take heavy casualties and their prize will likely be a pile of rubble once all is said and done.
  • Capturing Malta will not help the Axis take Egypt contrary to popular belief, particularly if they wait until June. The further they go into Egypt the longer their supply lines get, the shorter Allied supply lines get, El Alamein is still chokepoint, and Allied numerical and material superiority which starts coming into play in 1942 will still be a thing.
Just a few thoughts. I was just fooling around on Amazon yesterday and I found a AH book that has the Axis taking Malta in 42 and then Rommel taking Egypt and after that going on to move up into the Soviet Union or something like that.
 
November 11, 1942, loss at 2nd Alamein, and failed to cut off the DAK at Mersa Matruh

December 15th, failed again at El Agheila

Christmas, 8th Army was at Sirte.
Monty waited for a buildup at Buerat, east of the old Mareth Line, until Jan 16th when he massively outnumbered the Germans
DAK had successfully retreated faster than Monty would advance, reaching the Mareth Line, 2200km in 70 days. About 30km a day

Soldiers in the Age of Reason to the Napoleonic Wars, also averaged around 25-30 km a day, marching.

Yep, that's some blistering speed, right there

Faster than Heer Rommel had ever managed coming the other way and I am sure that soldiers in the age of Reason and Napoleonic wars were not doing it a) Across North Africa following a foe who blew up every bridge and culvert B) for 70 days and C) In winter (yes the weather in Cyrenaica was bloody awful that time of year)
 

Deleted member 1487

So no where near as serious as some of the other great sieges of WW2 which endured despite people dying of starvation in the streets!
K? What does that have to do with not having enough ammo and fuel for defenses to be able to endure a major invasion?

The Axis lost air superiority over Malta just ten days after the Hercules plan was agreed.

The invasion was never happening, it was starvation and surrender after failed summer convoys or nothing.
Oh you mean when the Axis diverted air power to support the Battle of Gazala, Tobruk, and invasion of Egypt IOTL?

I have made this point on other forums and I will just say again that I do not think an Axis capture of Malta in 1942 is quite the disaster for the Allies that it is generally made out to be (including a couple of rather poor AH books that make it the game changer that allows the great Rommel to capture Egypt):
  • In 1942 the British expended a lot of forces keeping Malta in the game. PEDESTAL alone saw one carrier and two cruisers sunk with another carrier earning an extended vacation in Virginia. No Malta to sustain and all of those forces devoted to supplying Malta get to cause trouble elsewhere.
  • A successful Axis invasion of Malta will be a casualty filled slugfest. Axis forces will take heavy casualties and their prize will likely be a pile of rubble once all is said and done.
  • Capturing Malta will not help the Axis take Egypt contrary to popular belief, particularly if they wait until June. The further they go into Egypt the longer their supply lines get, the shorter Allied supply lines get, El Alamein is still chokepoint, and Allied numerical and material superiority which starts coming into play in 1942 will still be a thing.
Just a few thoughts. I was just fooling around on Amazon yesterday and I found a AH book that has the Axis taking Malta in 42 and then Rommel taking Egypt and after that going on to move up into the Soviet Union or something like that.

No one here said the loss of Malta would be a game changer or allow Rommel's replace to take Egypt, rather that going after Malta would happen in lieu of launching Gazala and invading Egypt. Without Rommel it is hard to see anyone even try Gazala or that Hitler would reinforce that theater like he did IOTL without his media darling getting all the headlines.

If Malta is taken taken then it reduces most of the pressure on Axis logistics to North Africa, which is a huge help and reduces a major source of bleeding of forces to constantly have to suppress the island.

Where do you think the British would use their August and on naval forces that would have otherwise been either lost or tied up with Malta?
I don't think anyone disputes that invading Malta in 1942 would be bloody for the Axis, just that the juice would be worth the squeeze and cause serious issues for the Allies from then on, as the Malta outpost in the Axis backyard was a vital staging point for all sorts of operations, including providing air cover for the invasion of Sicily; without Malta it is debatable if Sicily would have even been invaded.

I don't see Malta getting any different of a treatment if Rommel is captured (as per the OP) and honestly the only thing I can think of as anyway meaningfully different in the war is that maybe the Allies have an easier time during Overlord with an even less well prepared Atlantic Wall to run into (provided the person who fills in for Rommel in this role isn't actually a hell of a lot better at organising something like that.)
Rommel was overrated in terms of his abilities above corps level operations, so I doubt we see much Atlantic Wall differences...which was generally pretty negligible as it was IOTL, since it basically folded like a wet paper bag when attacked and seems to have been a massive waste of resources. Outside of Omaha IIRC the Germans lost more men defending the Normandy beaches than the Allies lost landing and they were inland in a matter of hours. The real problem was when they tried to push inland and there wasn't much that Rommel did there that anyone else couldn't have and he was out of action 5 or 6 weeks into the campaign and not even present when it mattered on the first day.
 
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marathag

Banned
Rommel was overrated in terms of his abilities above corps level operations, so I doubt we see much Atlantic Wall differences.
Except before Rommel showed up, the Atlantic Wall was a concept, not an actual set of defensive areas.
He gets credit for making it real
 
K? What does that have to do with not having enough ammo and fuel for defenses to be able to endure a major invasion?


Oh you mean when the Axis diverted air power to support the Battle of Gazala, Tobruk, and invasion of Egypt IOTL?



No one here said the loss of Malta would be a game changer or allow Rommel's replace to take Egypt, rather that going after Malta would happen in lieu of launching Gazala and invading Egypt. Without Rommel it is hard to see anyone even try Gazala or that Hitler would reinforce that theater like he did IOTL without his media darling getting all the headlines.

If Malta is taken taken then it reduces most of the pressure on Axis logistics to North Africa, which is a huge help and reduces a major source of bleeding of forces to constantly have to suppress the island.

Where do you think the British would use their August and on naval forces that would have otherwise been either lost or tied up with Malta?
I don't think anyone disputes that invading Malta in 1942 would be bloody for the Axis, just that the juice would be worth the squeeze and cause serious issues for the Allies from then on, as the Malta outpost in the Axis backyard was a vital staging point for all sorts of operations, including providing air cover for the invasion of Sicily; without Malta it is debatable if Sicily would have even been invaded.

If they withdraw the air forces and other assets required to suppress Malta from North Africa - what happens in North Africa?

And low ammunition is not no ammunition

And low fuel is not no fuel

They retained enough of both right up to Pedestal to cause the Axis heavy losses.

Planning for a Hercules makes it a July 42 op at the earliest and by then the disparity in numbers starts to tell

Not to mention such an op would be well 'telegraphed' to the Allies and a full bloodied Op pedestal would have been conducted earlier
 

Deleted member 1487

Except before Rommel showed up, the Atlantic Wall was a concept, not an actual set of defensive areas.
He gets credit for making it real
And wasting resources when it did very little to stop an invasion. So good for the Allies and shortening the war.

If they withdraw the air forces and other assets required to suppress Malta from North Africa - what happens in North Africa?

And low ammunition is not no ammunition

And low fuel is not no fuel

They retained enough of both right up to Pedestal to cause the Axis heavy losses.

Planning for a Hercules makes it a July 42 op at the earliest and by then the disparity in numbers starts to tell

Not to mention such an op would be well 'telegraphed' to the Allies and a full bloodied Op pedestal would have been conducted earlier
ITTL I'm suggesting Africa would be static on the Axis side because there aren't enough resources to attack in Libya and invade Malta. So unless the Allies attack at Gazala instead things stay static. If worse comes to worse the Axis fall back on El Agheila like earlier and the British are logistically overstrained and stuck yet again.

IOTL the direct pressure on Malta was over by May to focus on fighting in North Africa, which helped the British save fuel on Malta and keep casualties down until Pedestal despite the increased pressure on their own supply lines.

Even if warned by codebreaking did the Allies really have the resources at the time to defend the island the way it would need to be? They had a hard enough time just trying to supply the island until August and even that month it was a near run thing.
 
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marathag

Banned
And wasting resources when it did very little to stop an invasion. So good for the Allies and shortening the war.
Seems the Allies expended a lot of effort to make sure the Invasion would go forward. OK, waves magic Wand.
Zero Atlantic Wall.

Is the invasion exactly the same, coming across the five Beaches in Normandy, planned for June 5 1944?
I think Not
 

marathag

Banned
Could it support a Sherman tank?
If they had need for heavy objects, why not?

Look at the Union Railroad temporary bridges
1595425753250.png

I think this was Bridge #3 across the Potomac, the others burned by the CSA
 
If they had need for heavy objects, why not?

Look at the Union Railroad temporary bridges
View attachment 568422
I think this was Bridge #3 across the Potomac, the others burned by the CSA

Took Haupt 9 days - an improvement on that rank amateur Caesar by any yard stick - an impressive achievement

It took the British just 6 hours and 15 minutes to build their Bridge across the Rhine ;)
 
This forum is great - Rommel gets captured and by page 2 there's a discussion about Trajan and Lee building a bridge across the Danube in order to resupply Malta before General Sherman rides in on his M4 Von Thoma
 
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