WI:Romano-British Empire

This is my first post on the forum so i hope i am doing this right.
Recently i have read about a certain Aurelius Ambrosius in Britain who was allegedly able to temporary stop the Anglo-Saxon Invasion. What if he had a worthy successor as the leader of Romano-British ressistance? How could they end up establishing a new empire on the british isles ?
 
You mean Ambrosius Aurelianus?

Anyways, its been a few months since i was neck deep in thinking about post-roman britain, but if your POD is at Ambrosius' time then its going to be a while for it to become an empire, and judging by the way the Britons shattered into many little kingdoms, these Romano-British Emperors are going to be awfully busy keeping things together and trying to work out a system to stay in power.

In the arthurian TL that i would like to write if i didn't have the attention span of a squirrel, i would have Constantius iii send one of his generals to retake the parts of Britannia that are worth while and arrange for the rest to become foederati (said general being Ambrosius, of course).

Then, with only the best of intentions of course, Ambrosius does in Britain what Aetius would did in Gaul OTL, eg: set himself up as the defacto ruler of Britain with the Foederati loyal to himself personally rather than some vague emperor figure far away. Then have his successor, Uther lets say (the best roman equivalent i can come up with os Eleutherius) declare himself emperor after Valentinian iii is assassinated. You can even have Aegidius join him and if Majorian gies for the purple as in OTL, then the he can work out an agreement between Majorian and Uther, basically splitting the west between north and south.
 
You mean Ambrosius Aurelianus?

Anyways, its been a few months since i was neck deep in thinking about post-roman britain, but if your POD is at Ambrosius' time then its going to be a while for it to become an empire, and judging by the way the Britons shattered into many little kingdoms, these Romano-British Emperors are going to be awfully busy keeping things together and trying to work out a system to stay in power.

In the arthurian TL that i would like to write if i didn't have the attention span of a squirrel, i would have Constantius iii send one of his generals to retake the parts of Britannia that are worth while and arrange for the rest to become foederati (said general being Ambrosius, of course).

Then, with only the best of intentions of course, Ambrosius does in Britain what Aetius would did in Gaul OTL, eg: set himself up as the defacto ruler of Britain with the Foederati loyal to himself personally rather than some vague emperor figure far away. Then have his successor, Uther lets say (the best roman equivalent i can come up with os Eleutherius) declare himself emperor after Valentinian iii is assassinated. You can even have Aegidius join him and if Majorian gies for the purple as in OTL, then the he can work out an agreement between Majorian and Uther, basically splitting the west between north and south.
Yes exactly Ambrosius Aurelianus.
Your Idea sounds awesome but i dont wanna steal your timeline idea and yea the Romano-Brits will probably have a hard time keeping the tibes under control, so they would probably need to do some form of bureaucratic reform
I thought any would be emperor would strip britain of its legions and just go for rome, so i didnt even think about the idea of it beign recaptured, but that is a super intresting scenario. Ambrosius alone probably leaks the manpower and legitamicy to keep Britain under control, let alone form a sucessor empire.
And yes i also thought that Ageidus could probably join him or even his son when the rest of west rome collapses.
But what could those do about the Anglo-Saxon Invasions and get the manpower in the first place? Aegidius and Syagrius used the remnants of the Rhine army as far as i know.
 
But what could those do about the Anglo-Saxon Invasions and get the manpower in the first place? Aegidius and Syagrius used the remnants of the Rhine army as far as i know.
Well besides the native Briton/Romano-Briton foederati, those irish folks that raided and settled in parts of Wales could also be made foederati. And keep in mind that the Anglo-Saxons weren't a unified group, even among the 'tribes' like Angles or Jutes, so you're as likely to find them on the 'roman' side as the invader's.

Also, If Ambrosius/Uther ally with Aegidius/Syagrius they can help each other against significant threats like the Franks eventually became for Soisson.
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
You probably need a PoD about a 100 years previously and have Magnus Maximus not try for the purple.

Best case for Britannia might be him losing Gaul but retaining Britain as a splinter kingdom from the WRE retaining at least a couple of legions and some auxillaries as core for the Romano-British to follow. Possibly also the bulk of the fleet to explain why Britain stood against the rest of the empire.
 
My main concerns with Romano-British timelines are as much about economics as they are political unity and strength.

Economically, Britain isn't The East. It isn't even Italia. But it is still a reasonably wealthy region that has good natural defences. What it does have is the potential for lots of coastal trade.

Politically, it's hard to keep it together, even when the Romans were strong. So you need to unite the people. Southern Britain has more Romans and Romano-British, so that's a fine base, but I doubt you can realistically expect to have them dominate the others without some co-operation. A good option could be to claim to be Bretwalda, and focus on economic domination rather than military force. But ensure you have a that title tie people's together with the Bretwalda only policing the peace, rather than forcing others to serve. (At first)

Strength, Britain was a naval power when it took off, it's immediate threats are naval, so the best way to solidify power, and move forces, would be to focus on that. Strong coastal forts, logistics and communication by sea, and dealing with raiders. That way a smaller force can be applied repeatedly and rapidly. This means forts in Ireland, Scotland, and likely Frisia, as well as the major rivers. The remainder focus on securing what would become the heart of Wessex in the south.

An alternative to all this is Coel Hen however. He was an alternative in the North. If you can somehow connect the two Generals in a timeline, that could be cool.
 
You probably need a PoD about a 100 years previously and have Magnus Maximus not try for the purple.

Best case for Britannia might be him losing Gaul but retaining Britain as a splinter kingdom from the WRE retaining at least a couple of legions and some auxillaries as core for the Romano-British to follow. Possibly also the bulk of the fleet to explain why Britain stood against the rest of the empire.
Would there be any reason for him not to try going for emperor and leaving britannia ? Also do you think we would still see Aegidius/Syagrius with a Pod that early ?
 
My main concerns with Romano-British timelines are as much about economics as they are political unity and strength.

Economically, Britain isn't The East. It isn't even Italia. But it is still a reasonably wealthy region that has good natural defences. What it does have is the potential for lots of coastal trade.

Politically, it's hard to keep it together, even when the Romans were strong. So you need to unite the people. Southern Britain has more Romans and Romano-British, so that's a fine base, but I doubt you can realistically expect to have them dominate the others without some co-operation. A good option could be to claim to be Bretwalda, and focus on economic domination rather than military force. But ensure you have a that title tie people's together with the Bretwalda only policing the peace, rather than forcing others to serve. (At first)

Strength, Britain was a naval power when it took off, it's immediate threats are naval, so the best way to solidify power, and move forces, would be to focus on that. Strong coastal forts, logistics and communication by sea, and dealing with raiders. That way a smaller force can be applied repeatedly and rapidly. This means forts in Ireland, Scotland, and likely Frisia, as well as the major rivers. The remainder focus on securing what would become the heart of Wessex in the south.

An alternative to all this is Coel Hen however. He was an alternative in the North. If you can somehow connect the two Generals in a timeline, that could be cool.
Yes i was also thinking an Ambrosius working with Coel Hen Timeline would be very nice but i dont know how to properly connect them, maybe he as a sort of "warden of the North" could work? Also i think the idea of Syagrius and Ambrosius and their sucessors collaborating sounds very intresting, perheps with a strong navy there could be rich trade between the english and french territories ?
 

Derek Pullem

Kicked
Donor
Would there be any reason for him not to try going for emperor and leaving britannia ? Also do you think we would still see Aegidius/Syagrius with a Pod that early ?
It depends. To be honest I can't see him not challenging Gratian but it's possible that if things go as per oTL he will still end up emperor in the West. If Theodosius decides to preempt Maximus instead of the other way around then you may have a situation with Maximus falling back on Britain instead of being isolated in Italy. Which would give him a better chance of escaping. It would depend a lot on whether he has the funds to guarantee the loyalty of his remaining troops and the fleet though

If he remains in Britain and hunkers down then events in Gaul won't be changed that much but it depends if you are an ardent believer in the butterfly effect or believe that the butterfly effect is heavily damped .
 
So either we have:
1. the possibility to see a Romano British Realm under Ambrosius Aurelianus establishing itself around 410AD
2. a Romano British Empire after Maximus failed to consolidate his rule as emperor, returning to Britain somewhere around 390?

I think the first Pod would be great since it is close to the king arthur mythos and the cumbrians and other british people working together with the romano brits sounds intresting (Coel Hen and Ambrosius) but i fear they would leak manpower and organisation and i am not sure how you would organice a mess of tribes and some lost romans into a coheasive political unit? Maybe by becoming high king or something ?

It seems to me that using the second Pod would give them more Troops and probably more resources depending on how and why he would reatreat ( if someone could specify how that would happen i would be gratefull since i dont know that much about Maximus)
The problem with the second option to me seems like he would be seen as a rebell after reatreating to britain and potential ursurper so any warlord or emperor following him would try to take him out and his successors would probably also try their luck after his death depending on the situation in britain ? A good thing would be that this splinter state would be the most legitimate successor state to west rome i think.

I made a little mockup for scenario 1 using a ck2 map so sorry for bad quality
red are Romano-Brits and "Syagrians"
dark green are other Brythonic people
light green are cumbrians under Coel Hen
yellow are gealic scots
brown are anglish and saxon foederatii

What do you peopl think which would give them a better chance of survival and eventually beign seen as a "romano-british" state and what internal administration would help them keep control ?
 

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A good thing would be that this splinter state would be the most legitimate successor state to west rome i think.
You know, I've read that maximus was related to the Theodosian dynasty, but I haven't been able to verify that. If it is the case though it'd be interesting if him amd his successors are the only emperors connected to the old dynasty.

I made a little mockup for scenario 1 using a ck2 map so sorry for bad quality
red are Romano-Brits and "Syagrians"
dark green are other Brythonic people
light green are cumbrians under Coel Hen
yellow are gealic scots
brown are anglish and saxon foederatii
Id make the Romano-British a bit bigger there if i were you, at least as far west as Gloucester and Exeter. They provide a solid front for if the Dumnonii or the western britons get any funny ideas, though as long as the R-Bs maintain whatever arrangement the romans made with them they shouldn't be a bother.

What do you peopl think which would give them a better chance of survival and eventually beign seen as a "romano-british" state and what internal administration would help them keep control ?
What gets set up really depends on how this state comes to be.

Using my own idea as an example; constantinus iii, when he retook gaul, set up a sort of provincial assembly. It didn't have any real power to govern, but it gave the local aristocracy a place to openly air grievances (allowing imperial administration to head off unrest before it got too bad) and tied them closer to the empire. Something similar would be set up in Britain, but given how far away they are from the imperial attention and how the provincial administration would want as many resources as they can get, the assembly's influence will grow. Then any would be British Emperor would need their support.

The administration itself would be changed too when Britain is retaken. The Province is smaller than before but the empire wouldn't want to make it into a single big block and risk losing it all in another revolt, so it be broken up into a handful of small provinces under lower status govenors (a Praeses, the root of modern president) supervised by the Vicarius.

Militarily there would be the Comes Britanniarum in overall command, and the Cumbrian foederati in the north would be under the Dux Britanniarum and thus technically second in command. It would also be a good idea to have have a Dux in the west comanding the less romanized Briton and Gaelic foederati there.
 
You know, I've read that maximus was related to the Theodosian dynasty, but I haven't been able to verify that. If it is the case though it'd be interesting if him amd his successors are the only emperors connected to the old dynasty.


Id make the Romano-British a bit bigger there if i were you, at least as far west as Gloucester and Exeter. They provide a solid front for if the Dumnonii or the western britons get any funny ideas, though as long as the R-Bs maintain whatever arrangement the romans made with them they shouldn't be a bother.


What gets set up really depends on how this state comes to be.

Using my own idea as an example; constantinus iii, when he retook gaul, set up a sort of provincial assembly. It didn't have any real power to govern, but it gave the local aristocracy a place to openly air grievances (allowing imperial administration to head off unrest before it got too bad) and tied them closer to the empire. Something similar would be set up in Britain, but given how far away they are from the imperial attention and how the provincial administration would want as many resources as they can get, the assembly's influence will grow. Then any would be British Emperor would need their support.

The administration itself would be changed too when Britain is retaken. The Province is smaller than before but the empire wouldn't want to make it into a single big block and risk losing it all in another revolt, so it be broken up into a handful of small provinces under lower status govenors (a Praeses, the root of modern president) supervised by the Vicarius.

Militarily there would be the Comes Britanniarum in overall command, and the Cumbrian foederati in the north would be under the Dux Britanniarum and thus technically second in command. It would also be a good idea to have have a Dux in the west comanding the less romanized Briton and Gaelic foederati there.
when britania is split into smaller realms, could the emperor there establish sth. similar to the theme system in constantinople ? I am not sure if britain would be able to simply pay a regular army big enough and well equipped and i dont want them to feudalize atleast not as fast as elsewhere in europe?
I also did some reading on Maximus, but i just fail to find a good reason for him to simply come back to britain, maybe he loses in 387 against Valentian II in milan and the Franks sensing weakness, (perheaps under Arbogast) forcing him to leave again to britain ? But wouldn't his soldiers rebel against him after so much failure? Sorry for so many questions but i am fairly new to this time period
 
when britania is split into smaller realms, could the emperor there establish sth. similar to the theme system in constantinople ?
I think thats inevitable given the situation the R-Bs are in.

Idk much about syagrius but i think you're right that, in the face of such total losses, he wouldn't live long

Sorry for so many questions but i am fairly new to this time period
No worries! Its a complex time period at the best of times, and Britain especially earns the name dark ages because of how little we know and the seeming total collapse of the economy around the middle of the 400s
 
I think thats inevitable given the situation the R-Bs are in.

Idk much about syagrius but i think you're right that, in the face of such total losses, he wouldn't live long


No worries! Its a complex time period at the best of times, and Britain especially earns the name dark ages because of how little we know and the seeming total collapse of the economy around the middle of the 400s
Thanks, yea its quit hard to find good sources and who exactly lived when where and did what. After Maximus in my Pod would lose in Miland and reatreat North and beign treatened by Franks, maybe he repells and invasion but isnt able to get the initiative back ? Or do you have an idea how to get him back to britain ?
Also i think i will probably use some more common "levies" as Limitanei in Britain which would be provided by local governers and tribal leaders, this will probably ease the burden to pay for a huge defense at the coast of decentralizing power but that is inevitable i think.
 

This is a YouTube let’s play series using a Mod for the game Rome Total War II Attila. The Mod allows you to play as a Romano-British faction. The YouTuber, officiallyDevin, does a good job making it feel like an alternate universe documentary at times, with “historical” quotes and commentary. Probably not what you were looking for, but I thought it was an entertaining alternate universe post-Roman Britain.
 
Yea i like it though the game ofc does not allow the proper deph for an alt history timeline sadly. If people have any more ideas on how to get Maximus back to britain and prevent him from beign killed feel free to throw it in ^^
 
Yea i like it though the game ofc does not allow the proper deph for an alt history timeline sadly. If people have any more ideas on how to get Maximus back to britain and prevent him from beign killed feel free to throw it in ^^
Maybe not Maximus himself but perhaps his son Victor can servive? If welsh legends are at all true then he would've had a briton mother
 
Maybe not Maximus himself but perhaps his son Victor can servive? If welsh legends are at all true then he would've had a briton mother
Oh yea indeed, that could work. Do we know who ambrosius is related to ? maybe we could also connect him to maximus family i think it was described that his parents wore the purple
 
Oh yea indeed, that could work. Do we know who ambrosius is related to ? maybe we could also connect him to maximus family i think it was described that his parents wore the purple
We don't know really. The best sources we have is probably gildas because he is closest timewise:

Ambrosius Aurelianus, a gentleman who, perhaps alone of the Romans, had survived the shock of this notable storm: certainly his parents, who had worn the purple, were slain in it.

What that actually means is up to debate, but the most likely answer is that his father was the governor of Maxima Caesariensis who was of consular rank and thus could wear purple. So in the event of Victor being forced to flee to Britain, Ambrosius' family is likely already an important one in Britain and thus will be close to Victor's imperial court. Close enough perhaps for Ambrosius or his father to marry into the imperial family.
 
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