WI: Roman Empire collapses during the Crisis of the Third Century?

Alkahest

Banned
Let's assume that no emperor managed to reunite all or most of the Roman Empire after the Crisis of the Third Century, and that the division of the empire into three or more successor states became more permanent. How would that affect...

1: The survival of Roman culture? Would the successor states be more "Roman" than the barbarian states which replaced the Western Roman Empire IOTL?

2: Religion? The Crisis happened decades before Constantine was even born, and if the Roman Empire fractured before Christianity could become its dominant religion, the religious history of Europe would look completely different.

3: Technological and cultural progress? Now, I'm fully aware that the "the Roman Empire was awesome but the barbarians wrecked everything and then the Church forced us to believe the Earth was flat because they hate science"-narrative is pretty far from the truth, but powerful Roman successor states hundreds of years before the Völkerwanderung would undoubtedly create a very different intellectual climate from what we saw in the Early Middle Ages IOTL.

Any thoughts and all discussion welcome, thanks in advance!
 
I don't really see a way the Roman Empire could be divided in three forever. Posthumus and his successors revolted to become Roman Emperors, and it just bogged down into a stalemate that was bound to be broken. Zenobia's Palmyrene Empire would be taken over by the victor in the west once they are done.

But for the sake of the thread, I can imagine eastern religion become dominated by one of the eastern mystery cults. Maybe Isis worship?
 

Alkahest

Banned
I don't really see a way the Roman Empire could be divided in three forever. Posthumus and his successors revolted to become Roman Emperors, and it just bogged down into a stalemate that was bound to be broken. Zenobia's Palmyrene Empire would be taken over by the victor in the west once they are done.
I also very much doubt that the Gallic and Palmyrene Empires could last all that long as stable polities, but what I'm wondering is what would happen if no-one managed to reunite the Roman Empire, regardless of how the successor states would look. Do you think reunification is inevitable? If so, what earlier changes do you think is necessary for the empire to collapse in the third century?

Also, unless I'm mistaken, didn't the Palmyrene Empire fall before the situation in the west was resolved?

But for the sake of the thread, I can imagine eastern religion become dominated by one of the eastern mystery cults. Maybe Isis worship?
As far as I understand it, Christianity was far more well-established in the east than in the west. If anything, it's western religion that should show a more "pagan" influence.
 
Also, unless I'm mistaken, didn't the Palmyrene Empire fall before the situation in the west was resolved?
Hmmm. It seems I got my dates wrong. The Palmyrene Empire fell in 273 and the Gallic Empire fell in 274. I thought it was the other way around, my mistake.
 
2: Religion? The Crisis happened decades before Constantine was even born, and if the Roman Empire fractured before Christianity could become its dominant religion, the religious history of Europe would look completely different.

Why? The fall of the Roman Empire did nothing to obstruct the spread of Christianity, which if anything made more headway among Barbarian peoples after the Fall than before. They had no problem with the religion per se, but were probably uneasy that embracing it might imply subordination to the Roman State.Take away tnhe Roman State and that problem disappears.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Why? The fall of the Roman Empire did nothing to obstruct the spread of Christianity, which if anything made more headway among Barbarian peoples after the Fall than before. They had no problem with the religion per se, but were probably uneasy that embracing it might imply subordination to the Roman State.Take away tnhe Roman State and that problem disappears.
I have little doubt that Christianity would remain an influential religion, but the Church as we know it would probably be nowhere to be found without the economic and political support of Constantine. Without Constantine, there would be no Ecumenical Councils, and establishing what was "true" Christianity and what was "heresy" would be more difficult. In addition, without the land, money and tax exemptions given to the early Church, the basis for its temporal power would be far less solid.

With no Constantine and no Roman Empire, I believe that there would be no single Church able to dominate all of Europe religiously and politically, and that beliefs considered heretical IOTL would be able to flourish in different parts of the fractured empire.
 
Why? The fall of the Roman Empire did nothing to obstruct the spread of Christianity, which if anything made more headway among Barbarian peoples after the Fall than before. They had no problem with the religion per se, but were probably uneasy that embracing it might imply subordination to the Roman State.Take away tnhe Roman State and that problem disappears.

There wouldn't be much of a reason for the leaders to convert to Christianity though. They converted at first to be allowed inside the empire, and then after it fell (see Clovis) to gain more support. If Christianity isn't the state religion, it is just going to be one influential religion among many. The existence of the empire is what it allowed to spread throughout western europe.
 

Alkahest

Banned
There wouldn't be much of a reason for the leaders to convert to Christianity though. They converted at first to be allowed inside the empire, and then after it fell (see Clovis) to gain more support. If Christianity isn't the state religion, it is just going to be one influential religion among many. The existence of the empire is what it allowed to spread throughout western europe.
Another good point. While I doubt such notions are common on this forum, it's worth pointing out that Christianity is not some kind of infectious disease which will inevitably spread unless something stops it. People will convert only if they see a good reason to.
 
Another good point. While I doubt such notions are common on this forum, it's worth pointing out that Christianity is not some kind of infectious disease which will inevitably spread unless something stops it. People will convert only if they see a good reason to.
Exactly. IMO, one unified religion can only really come about in western europe when it's under the control of the roman empire. Otherwise, there really is no reason for various independent chieftans and the like to all convert to the same religion.
 
Let's assume that no emperor managed to reunite all or most of the Roman Empire after the Crisis of the Third Century, and that the division of the empire into three or more successor states became more permanent. How would that affect...
I guess there were a few alternative scenarios of the division of the Roman Empire after the Crisis of the Third Century. But I think you mean something like the map below attached to this post. In OTL these four parts became hostile to each other there was a war and struggle for domination. But here we assume that successor states became more permanent.
IMO there was a possibility that this system could go on for a few centuries at least. If the successor states acknowledged the division and created a stable military equilibrium, balance of power among them. If some of these Roman states becomes a bully, get agressive and tries to conquer the other Roman states to disturb the equilibrium - the other Roman states unite against the agressor and restore the balance. Like the European powers did in the XVIII-XIX centuries.
This system might last for a thousand years. Actually it may survive to nowadays. Though some territories might be lost to the Germans, Arabs, Turkish tribes and the like. But on the other hand some territories could be conquered by the Roman successor states - lands in America, Africa or anywhere else.
1: The survival of Roman culture? Would the successor states be more "Roman" than the barbarian states which replaced the Western Roman Empire IOTL?
Most certainly. The Roman culture would survive. The successor states would be more "Roman" than the barbarian states which replaced the Western Roman Empire IOTL. And in my opinion the Arabs might lose the war against the Roman successor states or conquer only parts of Syria and Egypt and these countries might be soon reconquered by the Roman empires. So, North Africa and Asia might stay "Roman" as well.
2: Religion? The Crisis happened decades before Constantine was even born, and if the Roman Empire fractured before Christianity could become its dominant religion, the religious history of Europe would look completely different.
IMHO Christianity was just doomed to win on the Roman territories. Of course some Roman successor states would resist Christianity longer than the others - 50-200 years, give or take. But each Roman successor state would have its own version of Christianity more or less hostile to each other.

3: Technological and cultural progress? Now, I'm fully aware that the "the Roman Empire was awesome but the barbarians wrecked everything and then the Church forced us to believe the Earth was flat because they hate science"-narrative is pretty far from the truth, but powerful Roman successor states hundreds of years before the Völkerwanderung would undoubtedly create a very different intellectual climate from what we saw in the Early Middle Ages IOTL.
This more or less stable system of the Roman successor states would have created favourable auspicious conditions for development of technology and culture no doubt.

rome Tetrarchy_map3.jpg
 
I see continued disintegration until you have nations based on geographical lines more than anything else. Spain +/- Northern Africa, Gaul to the Rhine and Rhone, Brittania, Italy with surrounding islands, the Balkan Peninsula, Anatolia, and Egypt/Levant. These smaller nations would be easier to manage and would probably survive longer as there would be less chance for massive infighting (it would still happen though). It might cause a delay in the fall of the Roman civilization for another 2-3 centuries though the push of non-Romans peoples will continue into the Balkans and Gaul, perhaps with integration, more likely with warfare. Less is lost and a recovery might be possible earlier, maybe a Renaissance in the 1000s?
 
Another good point. While I doubt such notions are common on this forum, it's worth pointing out that Christianity is not some kind of infectious disease which will inevitably spread unless something stops it. People will convert only if they see a good reason to.


Though it has already spread to the Atlantic prior to the PoD. By Marcus Aurelius' reign there were already enough Christians in Gaul to "justify" a persecution, and around AD200 Tertullian mentions their existence in Britain and Spain. So they're already everywhere in the Roman world, and all they have to do is keep growing. A supportive Roman State would no doubt help, but they don't need one, and indeed have been managing without one for two centuries.

If the earlier fall leads to a partial breakdown in east-west communication, that might even help Chritianity in one way. It's most tenacious rival, Manichaenism, is only just starting up in the 3C, so probably won't spread as much or as fast as OTL, where it gave Christianity something of a run for its money in the 4C. One important butterfly - this probably means no St Augustine as we know him, since he was a Manichee for much of his life before embracing Christianity, and his early Manichaenism seems to have continued to influence some of his theological ideas even after his conversion.

Also, the Pagan sects are still going to suffer. OTL, Constantine seized the treasure from their Temples to put the badly debased Roman currency back on a secure footing. TTL, obviously he won't, but the Barbarian rulers will no doubt plunder it anyway for the usual reasons. So even if Christianity isn't directly strengthened, its opponents are still weakened. And with the Empire gone, it has all the time in the world.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Exactly. IMO, one unified religion can only really come about in western europe when it's under the control of the roman empire. Otherwise, there really is no reason for various independent chieftans and the like to all convert to the same religion.
That's my reasoning as well, but since I am irreligious myself it's possible that I have overlooked some psychological reasons for the success of Christianity.
I guess there were a few alternative scenarios of the division of the Roman Empire after the Crisis of the Third Century. But I think you mean something like the map below attached to this post. In OTL these four parts became hostile to each other there was a war and struggle for domination. But here we assume that successor states became more permanent.
A POD during the Tetrarchy is definitely another possibility. I have some ideas for different events that might be changed in various ways, but the only even remotely firm decision I've made is that the POD should be somewhere between the reigns of Alexander Severus and Constantine.
IIMHO Christianity was just doomed to win on the Roman territories. Of course some Roman successor states would resist Christianity longer than the others - 50-200 years, give or take. But each Roman successor state would have its own version of Christianity more or less hostile to each other.
I'm not entirely sure that I understand your reasoning. Why does Christianity need to be "resisted" like some inevitable flood that can only be stalled, not stopped? For what reason would the non-Christian Romans and barbarians suddenly decide to convert to the worship of Jesus? Mere exposure to the religion is not sufficient, unless Christianity is some kind of memetic disease of unparalleled virulence.

Other than that I agree with you, partly because you seem to know your stuff and partly because you say just what I want to hear. :D
I see continued disintegration until you have nations based on geographical lines more than anything else. Spain +/- Northern Africa, Gaul to the Rhine and Rhone, Brittania, Italy with surrounding islands, the Balkan Peninsula, Anatolia, and Egypt/Levant. These smaller nations would be easier to manage and would probably survive longer as there would be less chance for massive infighting (it would still happen though). It might cause a delay in the fall of the Roman civilization for another 2-3 centuries though the push of non-Romans peoples will continue into the Balkans and Gaul, perhaps with integration, more likely with warfare. Less is lost and a recovery might be possible earlier, maybe a Renaissance in the 1000s?
That kind of speculation is beyond my capability, but I agree that it's very likely that the successor states would eventually rely on natural borders, if some kind of equilibrium is to be reached.
Though it has already spread to the Atlantic prior to the PoD. By Marcus Aurelius' reign there were already enough Christians in Gaul to "justify" a persecution, and around AD200 Tertullian mentions their existence in Britain and Spain. So they're already everywhere in the Roman world, and all they have to do is keep growing. A supportive Roman State would no doubt help, but they don't need one, and indeed have been managing without one for two centuries.
Why would they grow, though? I have no doubt that many "pagans" in the third and fourth centuries would still convert to Christianity, but there's no reason for the religion to eclipse all others (like it did IOTL) without the support of the state.
If the earlier fall leads to a partial breakdown in east-west communication, that might even help Chritianity in one way. It's most tenacious rival, Manichaenism, is only just starting up in the 3C, so probably won't spread as much or as fast as OTL, where it gave Christianity something of a run for its money in the 4C.
Why would the spread of Manichaeism be retarded?
One important butterfly - this probably means no St Augustine as we know him, since he was a Manichee for much of his life before embracing Christianity, and his early Manichaenism seems to have continued to influence some of his theological ideas even after his conversion.
Well, since he was born decades after my planned POD, he would not even exist, Manichaean or not.
Also, the Pagan sects are still going to suffer. OTL, Constantine seized the treasure from their Temples to put the badly debased Roman currency back on a secure footing. TTL, obviously he won't, but the Barbarian rulers will no doubt plunder it anyway for the usual reasons. So even if Christianity isn't directly strengthened, its opponents are still weakened. And with the Empire gone, it has all the time in the world.
Sure, but it needs more than time to be successful. Jainism has been around for almost three thousand years, and it still has less than five million adherents.
 
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Earlier Dark Ages as the fragmented and divided parts of the empire are picked off by the barbarian tribes. The Sassanids grab as much of the Eastern Empire as they can/want.
 

Alkahest

Banned
While we're on the subject, I would like to ask anyone reading this for tips regarding good literature about this time period (235-312 AD). I recently finished the first volume of Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but I believe (and hope) that the last few centuries have produced books with more detailed as well as more correct information.
 
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Alkahest

Banned
Earlier Dark Ages as the fragmented and divided parts of the empire are picked off by the barbarian tribes. The Sassanids grab as much of the Eastern Empire as they can/want.
Possible, but my theory is that robust Roman successor states could preserve Roman culture, and even withstand barbarian incursions, better than a weak but nominally united empire.
 
Why would they grow, though? I have no doubt that many "pagans" in the third and fourth centuries would still convert to Christianity, but there's no reason for the religion to eclipse all others (like it did IOTL) without the support of the state.


Why not? They've been growing for over two centuries without the support of the State - indeed sometimes in the face of its opposition. No reason for growth to cease just because the Empire's gone. And if they can convert a Roman Emperor, why not a Barbarian King - or several of them.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Why not? They've been growing for over two centuries without the support of the State - indeed sometimes in the face of its opposition. No reason for growth to cease just because the Empire's gone. And if they can convert a Roman Emperor, why not a Barbarian King - or several of them.
I don't doubt that some kings would convert, but I see no reason for Christianity to be as dominant in a TL where it's not the state religion of the Roman Empire. A king could convert to Christianity and oppress all other religions, but he might as well decide to oppress Christians.

The thing with early Christians, as I understand it, is that they didn't mix all that well with other religions. (Something about worshipping other gods being a Big Deal.) So if they get the dominant force of Western civilization under their sway, great, let the pagan-crushing begin. But if they fail to achieve that victory, they live dangerously. It's still a pretty young religion, and its dominance, even its relevance, is still in jeopardy.
 

Alkahest

Banned
Here's one of my (vague) ideas for a POD, comments and critique most welcome.

268: Gallienus survives the assassination attempt (his guards being quicker on their feet), and executes Aurelius Heraclianus and his co-conspirators. As a result of this incident, Gallienus becomes more paranoid and spends more of his time jumping at shadows and preemptively executing advisors of questionable loyalty than stomping down the many rebellions in the empire.

After many years of anarchy and a more successful assassination attempt, the new emperor grows desperate as he sees the army of Postumus (or some other wannabe conqueror) marching on Rome, preparing for the usual "LOL I'm the emprah now"-routine that was popular back in the third century. After a tactical retreat, he strikes a deal with Zenobia. Her Palmyrene Empire would become a client state of Rome, with a great deal of autonomy in exchange for nominal fealty, tribute in the form of grain (Romans gotta eat) and military aid against the would-be usurper.

Though Postumus is defeated, Zenobia's semi-secession sets a dangerous precedent. A few decades and more than a dozen emperors later, more and more provinces enjoy a kind of almost-independence from the increasingly irrelevant Rome.
 
While we're on the subject, I would like to ask anyone reading this for tips regarding good literature about this time period (235-312 AD). I recently finished the first volume of Gibbon's The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, but I believe (and hope) that the last few centuries have produced books with more detailed as well as more correct information.

This one is good. I've been meaning to read it for some time now but haven't gotten my hands on it lately.

http://www.amazon.com/Aurelian-Thir...=UTF8&qid=1366628120&sr=8-2&keywords=aurelian
 
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