WI: Richard III slays Henry Tudor at Bosworth but gets injured and dies after reaching London?

There are plenty of threads about both dying directly at Bosworth but what if Richard lives long enough to make it back to London and name an heir? Does he go for Warwick and remove his attainder or does he pass England on to someone else? In either case, what happens to Edward IV’s daughters?
 
Do we know where Warwick, Elisabeth & Cecily, and De la Pole were during Bosworth?
Might help formulate who will have claims made and alliances.
 
I think John de la Poole will be the next king of england.


Iirc Lincoln had no retainers of his own, and his father, the Duke of Suffolk (who had) didn't even trouble to bring them to Bosworth. The biggest magnates are Northumberland, Lord Stanley and (if he has survived Bosworth) the Duke of Norfolk. Has any of those a strong reason to back Lincoln?
 
Iirc EoY, Lincoln and Warwick were all up at Sheriff Hutton. So they can all be rounded up by whoever gets his troops there first - probably either Stanley or Northumberland.

There is the odd suggestion that Lincoln was at Bosworth. If so he'd presumably accompany Richard back to London and be there when he died, which would put him in a decent position- depending on who he was able to win to his side- Howard, Lovell, Catesby, Percy are with the army (though Percy might hold a grudge over Lincoln's role in the Council of the North), and whoever's in London.

And depending on how things play out at Bosworth it's possible Stanley isn't in a position to charge off to Sheriff Hutton.
 
There is the odd suggestion that Lincoln was at Bosworth. If so he'd presumably accompany Richard back to London and be there when he died, which would put him in a decent position- depending on who he was able to win to his side- Howard, Lovell, Catesby, Percy are with the army (though Percy might hold a grudge over Lincoln's role in the Council of the North), and whoever's in London.

And depending on how things play out at Bosworth it's possible Stanley isn't in a position to charge off to Sheriff Hutton.


Which Howard are we assuming? Has "Jockey of Norfolk" survived the battle or is it his son Thomas? And did either of them have any particular commitment to Lincoln, who, after all, had never been publicly proclaimed as heir to the throne, though some of Richard's actions may have hinted at it. Thomas Howard, at any rate, was soon reconciled to Henry VII. OTOH, if Bosworth has gone so much better for Richard that John Howard has survived, then the Stanleys are pretty certain to have stayed on the winning side.

FWIW, my impression of the Howards is that all they really cared about was regaining the Norfolk title, which Edward IV had nicked for the benefit of his younger son. They backed Richard as the quickest way to get that, but it's not clear that they had any particular love for him, let alone for Lincoln. If after Richard's death Percy and Stanley decide they want Warwick, I could easily imagine Norfolk going along.
 
Last edited:
Could the prince's in the tower still be alive?

They haven't been seen or heard from since mid-1483-ish, and Richard didn't wheel them out at any point to dispel rumours that he killed them, so I wouldn't hold out much hope (unless you believe the highly questionable theory that Richard smuggled them out of the country because reasons, or the equally questionable theories that have Richard of Shrewsbury surviving and actually being Perkin Warbeck or becoming the mysterious 'Richard Plantagenent of Eastwell').

FWIW, my impression of the Howards is that all they really cared about was regaining the Norfolk title, which Edward IV had nicked for the benefit of his younger son. They backed Richard as the quickest way to get that, but it's not clear that they had any particular love for him.

They were among the few major peers (plus Percy) to turn out for Richard at Bosworth, does that mean anything regarding their loyalty to him?
 
They were among the few major peers (plus Percy) to turn out for Richard at Bosworth, does that mean anything regarding their loyalty to him?

They were loyal to him while he lived, but would that loyalty automatically transfer to a nephew? We can't know what John would have done, but Thomas at least seems to have soon reconciled himself to the Tudors. And it may be significant that Lincoln never made an open claim to the throne, preferring to hide behind a bogus "Earl of Warwick", which suggests that he knew the latter would have more support. Nor, so far as I'm aware, did Lincoln's brothers take up the Yorkist cause until after Warwick's execution in 1499. All in all, Warwick seems to have been the "default option" for the remaining Yorkists.
 
They were loyal to him while he lived, but would that loyalty automatically transfer to a nephew? We can't know what John would have done, but Thomas at least seems to have soon reconciled himself to the Tudors. And it may be significant that Lincoln never made an open claim to the throne, preferring to hide behind a bogus "Earl of Warwick", which suggests that he knew the latter would have more support. Nor, so far as I'm aware, did Lincoln's brothers take up the Yorkist cause until after Warwick's execution in 1499. All in all, Warwick seems to have been the "default option" for the remaining Yorkists.
Who would serve as regent for Warwick?
 
They were loyal to him while he lived, but would that loyalty automatically transfer to a nephew? We can't know what John would have done, but Thomas at least seems to have soon reconciled himself to the Tudors. And it may be significant that Lincoln never made an open claim to the throne, preferring to hide behind a bogus "Earl of Warwick", which suggests that he knew the latter would have more support. Nor, so far as I'm aware, did Lincoln's brothers take up the Yorkist cause until after Warwick's execution in 1499. All in all, Warwick seems to have been the "default option" for the remaining Yorkists.

And Tom Howard did allegedly refuse an offer to get sprung from jail and join the Simnel revolt IOTL. Though I'm not sure whether that provides any insight into what he'd do in this radically different scenario.

I agree that the bizarre Simnel episode probably counts against the idea that Lincoln would claim the throne. Some people claim that his end game if victorious was to dispose of Simnel (and the real Warwick?) and take the throne himself but that never made a great deal of sense to me (it seems rather over-elaborate).

Who would serve as regent for Warwick?

Whoever can get Warwick in their possession and throw together some decent support base amongst the Lords?
 
Possibly Elizabeth of York, with a Council including the big shots like Howard, Percy and Stanley. There could be some brisk bargaining over who gets to marry EoY and Margaret of Clarence.

Oh interesting, would there be a suggestion of marriage between Elizabeth and Edward?
 
Oh interesting, would there be a suggestion of marriage between Elizabeth and Edward?
Depends on which lords have daughters of marriageable age, I think. Elizabeth already has the taint of bastardy, whether parliament declares her legitimate or not...which I don't think that parliament will do, since it would delegitimize them as a political body, to reverse such an important ruling so quickly. Marrying her would solve the problem of her claim, but then he has no possibility of greater allies, and little to offer against De la Pole. If, on the other hand, his regents pack Elizabeth off to Portugal as planned and one of the mightiest gets the new king as son-in-law, then Warwick is in luck...for now. The nation is still disorganized and tumultuous, and Warwick must pick his way carefully.

But then again, if some powerful lord has a son of marriageable age, he could get the young man and Elizabeth to wed, and claim the kingdom for her. Warwick has a better chance though, in my opinion, although I'm not sure where De la Pole would stand here.
 
Top