WI: Richard I had legitimised Philip of Cognac

So, I was doing some research on Richard I (as you do), and remembering that he supposedly had one recognized bastard, I began doing a bit of digging. Now I am wondering, if when it became clear that Berengaria was not going to have children, Richard instead of remarrying or naming John his heir, legitimized ihs bastard son Philip and named him his heir, this could either happen in the mid 1190s or perhaps on his death bed.

My question is, what would the effects be? How much suppoirt would Philip get against John?
 
Assuming that he was Richard's bastard (it's not clear he was, even if I tend to agree it's the case)

That wouldn't be acknowledged, at all. Richard's succession is going to be even more wild with a clearly not legitimate candidate (would it be only for his low birth : remember that the nobility of the mother counted as well) with at best some token support in Aquitaine (even less so if Alienor doesn't acknowledge him)

The bigger change would have been Philippe Auguste having a stroke, learning about how Plantagenêts are fucked up.

Heck, there's even good chances that more legitimate heirs as John or Arthur (under his mother's tutelage) would actively oppose such move with Capetian blessing.
 
Assuming that he was Richard's bastard (it's not clear he was, even if I tend to agree it's the case)

That wouldn't be acknowledged, at all. Richard's succession is going to be even more wild with a clearly not legitimate candidate (would it be only for his low birth : remember that the nobility of the mother counted as well) with at best some token support in Aquitaine (even less so if Alienor doesn't acknowledge him)

The bigger change would have been Philippe Auguste having a stroke, learning about how Plantagenêts are fucked up.

Heck, there's even good chances that more legitimate heirs as John or Arthur (under his mother's tutelage) would actively oppose such move with Capetian blessing.

Okay interesting, so do you think it is more than likely Richard might avoid doing such a thing, or that Philip would enjoy minimal support then?
 
Alternatively, what if Arthur Duke of Brittany was raised either by his uncle Richard, or by his grandmother Elaenor?
 
Okay interesting, so do you think it is more than likely Richard might avoid doing such a thing
Basically this : it doesn't seems like he had a particular relationship with his bastard (it's not even sure it's the only one), Philipp was of low birth...
Trying to make a bastard a legitimate son would simply be unacceptable, as rejecting elements of stable successions.

or that Philip would enjoy minimal support then?
Token support would be the maximum he could enjoy. I see no real important base on which he could base himself.

Alternatively, what if Arthur Duke of Brittany was raised either by his uncle Richard, or by his grandmother Elaenor?
It would be hard : it was attempted IOTL, and was eventually rejected by Constance and bretons nobles, that had a really limited trust on Richard's benevolence (at the point Arthur refugeed in the Capetian court)

The main problem, eventually, was that Arthur didn't have much support in England or Aquitaine; and that he was too young to be a credible heir when his uncle John had an important clientele and the support of Alienor (and his deceased brother's eventually).

It would ask for Constance to die early ITTL, to Richard to pull a quicker campaign, to piss on Alienor and John (Philippe probably switching alliances if John acknowledge's Capetian suzerainty, which he would likely do in search of political support). Basically, and as always when it comes to Plantagenet's holdings in France, Capetians would have a decisive importance.
 
Basically this : it doesn't seems like he had a particular relationship with his bastard (it's not even sure it's the only one), Philipp was of low birth...
Trying to make a bastard a legitimate son would simply be unacceptable, as rejecting elements of stable successions.


Token support would be the maximum he could enjoy. I see no real important base on which he could base himself.


It would be hard : it was attempted IOTL, and was eventually rejected by Constance and bretons nobles, that had a really limited trust on Richard's benevolence (at the point Arthur refugeed in the Capetian court)

The main problem, eventually, was that Arthur didn't have much support in England or Aquitaine; and that he was too young to be a credible heir when his uncle John had an important clientele and the support of Alienor (and his deceased brother's eventually).

It would ask for Constance to die early ITTL, to Richard to pull a quicker campaign, to piss on Alienor and John (Philippe probably switching alliances if John acknowledge's Capetian suzerainty, which he would likely do in search of political support). Basically, and as always when it comes to Plantagenet's holdings in France, Capetians would have a decisive importance.

Okay so essentially, it is kinda inevitable that John would come to the throne in this cirucmstances
 
Okay so essentially, it is kinda inevitable that John would come to the throne in this cirucmstances

Not exactly. I think Arthur had its chances, but John eventually had more.
Maybe an earlier death of Alienor, more uncertainty from Richard (we're talking of Ricard Òc e Non* there, not that hard), and John pissing Philippe Auguste even more than IOTL...

*"Yes-and-No" Richard in occitan
 
Not exactly. I think Arthur had its chances, but John eventually had more.
Maybe an earlier death of Alienor, more uncertainty from Richard (we're talking of Ricard Oc e No* there, not that hard), and John pissing Philippe Auguste even more than IOTL...

*"Yes-and-No" Richard in occitan

Hmm interesting, of course Arthur with his name and its mythical leanings, idea!
 
Hmm interesting, of course Arthur with his name and its mythical leanings, idea!

I'm not sure having a second Richard I, mostly driven by a knightly idea of rulership would be that "ideal" for Plantagenêts interests.
As much John was comically incompetent, he at least understood that some reinforcement of royal power was in order.
 
I'm not sure having a second Richard I, mostly driven by a knightly idea of rulership would be that "ideal" for Plantagenêts interests.
As much John was comically incompetent, he at least understood that some reinforcement of royal power was in order.

Aha very true, was Arthur very maritally driven then? But then again weren't all medieval kings to some extent, if they wanted to remain on their thrones
 
Arthur as a king would certainly have to deal with a more powerful English nobility, huge divisiness of continental holdins, low ressources, Capetians, and that's where his youth is going to be a problem, especially with a still possible pro-John faction.
He might be military driven (although it doesn't seem to be obvious), but simply might lack time to do it when problems would kick at his door.

At this point, important feudal princes had to be less focused on military, or more exactly, to focus as much on political matters.
 
Arthur as a king would certainly have to deal with a more powerful English nobility, huge divisiness of continental holdins, low ressources, Capetians, and that's where his youth is going to be a problem, especially with a still possible pro-John faction.
He might be military driven (although it doesn't seem to be obvious), but simply might lack time to do it when problems would kick at his door.

At this point, important feudal princes had to be less focused on military, or more exactly, to focus as much on political matters.

Okay interesting, do you think a Arthur raised by his grandmother could be such a man?
 
Okay interesting, do you think a Arthur raised by his grandmother could be such a man?

Don't think so : at best he would turn into another Richard I (meaning more a Duke of Aquitaine than an English king), at worst she was too close from John for his own sake.

And again, Constance of Brittany and other nobles were really wary about giving Arthur's custody to other Plantagenets.
 
Don't think so : at best he would turn into another Richard I (meaning more a Duke of Aquitaine than an English king), at worst she was too close from John for his own sake.

And again, Constance of Brittany and other nobles were really wary about giving Arthur's custody to other Plantagenets.

Okay true enough, Richard really did himself no favours really did he.

One wonders, what might have happened had the Young King lived.
 
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