Yours was actually the third significant bump.Well this is just to interesting of a thread to not necro-ing with
WI Rhenish Moriscos
- Thread starter htgriffin
- Start date
Well, its a very cool and fascinating POD
. Someone needs to do a TL of this.Personally, I doubt there would be much conversion of Christians to Islam-Catholic states in Spain made such conversions punishable by death, and I suspect German states would adopt similar laws. Militant Islamo-Anabaptist sects are cool, and I can see some forming in the chaos immediately before and during the Thirty Years War. But I suspect they wouldn't last all that long once order had been reestablished.
As to their survival, I think its quite likely that Protestant states would accept them as allies against the Hapsburgs and allow them to freely practice their religion so long as they don't try to convert anyone. After a couple generations, everyone will be used to the new German Muslims and they'll probably have about the same status as Jews. What language they wind up speaking will be interesting-I can see them retaining Arabic (albiet in a heavily German-influenced form), or adopting German but mixing it with Arabic and writing it in the Arabic alphabet among themselves (similar to how OTL Yiddish developed). We'd probably see a continium of these in different places.
The most interesting parts of this will be the effects contact with Islam would have on Western religion and philosophy. This would at first come from the good deal of Muslims who decided to convert to Protestantism, seeing it as a lesser evil than Catholicism. There would probably be enough of these to inject a significant Islamic influence into Protestantism (which would most likely mean a greater emphasis on the oneness of God and a rejection of images that becomes even more strident than OTL). Eventually, though, you'd have Muslim philosophers and intellectuals rise to prominence at European courts and become widely read among educated people, which might have some ramifications on Enlightenment philosophy (philosophy isn't my strong point so I can't say exactly what these would be-but I bet it would be something).
Also, with Muslims becoming an accepted part of European society, you might get less racist views of the religion once the 19th century and colonialism roll around. As mentioned by a previous poster, the French eventually gave the Jews of Algeria citizenship-WI TTL Europeans decide that Muslims deserve political rights as well?
All in all, a rather improbable but very interesting POD, which somebody needs to turn into a full TL.
EDIT: Leo or Abdul, if you notice this thread, feel free to comment!
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Valdemar II
Banned
Interesting bump, after rethinking this after two years, I think the Rhenish Moriscos will be a even worse situation than I suggested earlier, the local Protestant wasn't more tolerant than the Catholic, they was just often unable to deal as efficient with minorities as stronger Catholic states could. The Muslim will lack prince or knights to back them up, which did exist for most Protestant sects, only the Anababtist was in somewhat the same position, and they only barely survived, and in Europe most Anababtist groups has almost dissappeared by modern day. At best they can adopt a position like the Jews, but while the Jews survived through a mix of inerti, tradition and the fact that they filled a useful niche, the Muslims lack that, they have to carve a niche to themself. Through if they can survive to after the 30YW, they have a chance to receive some degree of tolerance if they move into some of the more depopulated states.
The Brandenburg Hohenzollern as one example would likely embrace tolerant policies toward them, in a attempt to repopulate their domains, they accepted the Anababtists, and only grew intolerant toward them again when they began to force universal military service on their subjects, a problem the Morisco won't suffer under.
The Brandenburg Hohenzollern as one example would likely embrace tolerant policies toward them, in a attempt to repopulate their domains, they accepted the Anababtists, and only grew intolerant toward them again when they began to force universal military service on their subjects, a problem the Morisco won't suffer under.
Cuāuhtemōc
Banned
Maybe the Moorish community is used for military purposes? The males as soldiers while the women and young tended as the nurses and what not>?
If, as Valdemar said, the Northern European Moriscos are to be treated as Anabaptist analogues, facing persecution at every turn and barely surviving, might we carry the comparison along and see a handful of Muslim immigrants getting on a ship to the New World, therefore having a disproportionate influence on what became the United States?
Interesting POD, to be sure.
Interesting POD, to be sure.
If Turtledove/Stirling/another butterfly-less pop AH writer had his way, Geert Wilders lives a comically ironic life in the Flemish Emirate.
Oh, that's really quite tinglingly intriguing. Somebody mentioned that the Moriscos might become the Jews of northern Europe, should this happen it's a fair assumption to make that they'd go along with the Dutch to places like New Amsterdam and Brazil and the West Indies. Those last two are especially interesting... With masters who are also often muslim, would the muslim African slaves retain their religious background? (Yes, I realize not all slaves were muslim, but enough them were that one could end up with whole islands in the West Indies dominated by Muslims, especially with the Moriscos in charge). And depending on how seriously the "enslave no other muslim" rule is enforced, abolitionism may have far earlier roots in the New World.
The muslims have yet another problem than the Jews lack: The Ottomans. Disliked they might be, but Jews never had a jewish empire skulking near Christian nations and plotting (no doubt with much maniacal laughter and the eating of christian babies) world conquest... and we all know the insane conspiracy theories than sprung up about the Sionist Illuminati Templars and all their assorted brethern.
They might survive -the jews did, after all, even in places like Russia- but they would certainly don't have a nice time about it.
They might survive -the jews did, after all, even in places like Russia- but they would certainly don't have a nice time about it.
Valdemar II
Banned
I don't know if the Anabaptist disproportionate influence on the later USA, but I could easily see a modern population of serveral hundred thousands Morisco in Alt. USA. But I think they will have less influence than the Anabaptist groups, mostly because they simply won't be as large population, through as a non-pacifist religeon, they may also be much more integrated into North German society than Anabaptist ever were.
They won't be the Jews of northern Europe, the Jews was the Jews of northern Europe, plus while lacking the long tradition of "tolerance" toward the Jews, the northen Christians will also lack much of the historical distaste for Morisco they had for Jews.
It's not going to mean as much the Turks was a threat to the Habsburgs not to the Protestants, so while they won't be welcome in Habsburg land, the Protestant princes will primary care that they are infidels rather than they're Muslims.
And the Jews were no threat to anyone, Hapsburgs or Protestants, and we all know how that turned out. The fact the Ottomans are in decadence, and several nations away, will not matter to the zealot preacher leading a mob to the nearest moorish quarer, nor to the mob themselves. Those are the people who honestly believed jews ate christian babies on the sabbat.
Valdemar II
Banned
Pognoms was rare and usual a lot smaller outside Russia, and the princes whom allowed Jews in their territorium, usual protected the Jews from attacks. North and central European Protestant states are distinct in the fact that the state had control over the Church annd a preacher whom begin on that kind of crap will fast end up in jail or banished from the realm. If you look on the Pognoms which did happened in OTL in early modern Germany, they was almost never organised and almost rioting, usual in bad times, and death was rare, and didn't keep the Jewish population from growing in size. That's the primary difference between these states and south or east Europe, if the prince has allowed Jews on his land, they're under his protection and the princes took their monopol of violence quite serious.
It's a very interesting and original POD.
I was thinking about something that perhaps doesn't make much sense...
Well, i was thinking that the frist years of the moriscos in their new "home" would see a large rate of mortality and that they would have a difficult process of adaptation to their new lifes. The latter is pretty obvious, of course, but I was wondering what would the place occupied by the moriscos in the economical and social tissues of their destinations. Most of the morico population in Spain had their mean of life in the agriculture. Furthermore, the kind of agriculture they used to practice is not doable so far to the north due mainly to climatic issues plus the need of an infrastructure that had been developed during centuries in Spain. some others, a minority, had other kind of occupations, like transhumant shepherds and dockers.
As said, they wouldn't be like the jews, because ther were yet jews occuping that niche as Valdemar stated and because their aforementioned "preconditions" don't invite to think in that outcome. If they are going to be used to repopulate certain regions, as proposed by other poster, I assume that as agricultural population, without external protection and asistance Couldn't be their rate of mortality in the first decades terrible until the learn the secrets of the local agriculture? On the other hand, would be possible to see new agricole technics introduced in northern Europe via those moriscos or none of them would be useful in that climate? Or would them fin other different occupations?
Also, would them form an organized political lobby as they did often in their new destinations in OTL or being in christian states they woudn't have that ability of influence? Someone mentioned the possibility of their use as military forces. Some of them did taht in OTL serving the Ottomans and northern african states. Not less than the moroquian expedition against the Songhay empire was mainly composed by moriscos and led by one of them, Yuder Pasha. But perhaps they wouldn't have the same motivation to do similar things in european lands.
And finally a consideration about their religious status. Technically a morisco was a catholic, not a muslim. They were considered "new christians", in opposition to the "old christian". Obviously that differentiation only "hided" the reality of the forced conversions and the survivance of cripto-muslim practices. So, what would be their situation in the burgundian territories? Would them be forced to keep the farce and show themselves as christians in the public life or would their true faith be tolerated? If the former, what kind of measures do you think woud be taken to force the situation?
Cheers.
I was thinking about something that perhaps doesn't make much sense...
Well, i was thinking that the frist years of the moriscos in their new "home" would see a large rate of mortality and that they would have a difficult process of adaptation to their new lifes. The latter is pretty obvious, of course, but I was wondering what would the place occupied by the moriscos in the economical and social tissues of their destinations. Most of the morico population in Spain had their mean of life in the agriculture. Furthermore, the kind of agriculture they used to practice is not doable so far to the north due mainly to climatic issues plus the need of an infrastructure that had been developed during centuries in Spain. some others, a minority, had other kind of occupations, like transhumant shepherds and dockers.
As said, they wouldn't be like the jews, because ther were yet jews occuping that niche as Valdemar stated and because their aforementioned "preconditions" don't invite to think in that outcome. If they are going to be used to repopulate certain regions, as proposed by other poster, I assume that as agricultural population, without external protection and asistance Couldn't be their rate of mortality in the first decades terrible until the learn the secrets of the local agriculture? On the other hand, would be possible to see new agricole technics introduced in northern Europe via those moriscos or none of them would be useful in that climate? Or would them fin other different occupations?
Also, would them form an organized political lobby as they did often in their new destinations in OTL or being in christian states they woudn't have that ability of influence? Someone mentioned the possibility of their use as military forces. Some of them did taht in OTL serving the Ottomans and northern african states. Not less than the moroquian expedition against the Songhay empire was mainly composed by moriscos and led by one of them, Yuder Pasha. But perhaps they wouldn't have the same motivation to do similar things in european lands.
And finally a consideration about their religious status. Technically a morisco was a catholic, not a muslim. They were considered "new christians", in opposition to the "old christian". Obviously that differentiation only "hided" the reality of the forced conversions and the survivance of cripto-muslim practices. So, what would be their situation in the burgundian territories? Would them be forced to keep the farce and show themselves as christians in the public life or would their true faith be tolerated? If the former, what kind of measures do you think woud be taken to force the situation?
Cheers.
Also, you've got to wonder how will these Dutch Moriscos influence things in East Indies, too. If de Houtman had had brought a muslim with him in his visit in Banten, will there be chance that his TTL visit become a much more peaceful one ? Also, how will the Indonesian muslims perceive the later Dutch dominance ITTL ?
Hate to do this, but I don't think this is the time for this thread to drown just yet
Valdemar II
Banned
Agricultural a lot of Spanish practice and plants was spread to North Europe in the 16th century, and was a major factor in the North European agricultural revolution in early modern history. The most important plant the Morisco will bring with them are red clover and the potato, the later while not very important in the rich soil of the Rhineland and Netherlands would still help them survive on poorer areas and would enourmous important when they move east into the poor sandy soil of the area between the Elb and the Oder. The former will help them thrieve in the Rhineland, Red Clover thrive in the rich soil of the Rhineland (through also in poor soil with a low ph value). Red Clover are interesting for several reason it's very protein rich (boiled it was often used as starvation food) making it useful as cattle fedder, it also have the benefit that it introduce nitrats to the soil reducing the time it need to lie fallow, other plant did the same wild clover (but it grew slower) and peas (but to much lesser degree). So likely the Morisco would thrieve after a few decade of adaption.
They will do their best to avoid military service it's a sure way to destruction, soldier or mercenary (not a great difference) wasn't a respected proffesion in the 17th century, and they tended to have short life expectenciers. I doubt we would see much lobbyism, they would be outcast living on the border of society.
We will likely see a significant precent just assimilate in their new enviorement, some may convert to Protestantism, but it's not impossible that some when away from the Spanish and placed in the religeous diverse and chaotic Germany would return to their old faith. They may only be a few thousands, but they may thrieve in the aftermatch of the 30YW, where repopulation of Germany become more important than religeous purity. Even a few thousand placed in a depopulated Pfalz, Brandenburg and Pommern may explode in size over the next century just as the Anabaptist did.
Linguistic they will likely drop "Spanish" over the first century, through they may evolve their own German-based creole with large Spanish and Arabic influence. Religeous we will likely see some radical changes too, they're to a large degree cut off from Muslim influence, they likely reduce the five prayers to four (thanks to the large flunctuation in the day length), the Ramadan would likely become more like Lent (difference in day length again), light alcoholic brews will become halal (worse water quality in North Europe), the lunar year will likely be replaced by solar year (to better fit North European agriculture). Pigs will still be haram and ritual slaugthering of animals will likely be kept. There will be no call to prayer (no need to broadcast you're a infidel), minarees will for that reason likely disappear from Morisco mosques.
IIRC, the Dutch were religiously tolerant towards anyone not a Catholic, and Jews did fairly well under the Republic. So I can imagine the Republic allowing the Muslims in the Spanish Netherlands to cross over, revert openly to Islam, and form military units to fight their Hapsburg oppressors, in exchange agreeing to swear loyalty to the Republic and not try to convert any Christians (Calvinist or otherwise).
Eventually, some of the more well off ones would engage in trade-Islam, like Calvinism, is a very mercantile oriented religion and the Muslims will have connections in North Africa and the Middle East that would benefit the Dutch. So I imagine you'd get a small, but influential, segment of wealthy Muslim businessmen in the Republic, and a larger population of farmers and soldiers, some of whom may immigrate to places like Brandenburg after the Thirty Years War if the rulers offer them a good enough deal.
Eventually, some of the more well off ones would engage in trade-Islam, like Calvinism, is a very mercantile oriented religion and the Muslims will have connections in North Africa and the Middle East that would benefit the Dutch. So I imagine you'd get a small, but influential, segment of wealthy Muslim businessmen in the Republic, and a larger population of farmers and soldiers, some of whom may immigrate to places like Brandenburg after the Thirty Years War if the rulers offer them a good enough deal.