WI Rhenish Moriscos

[htgriffin]

Good idea.
The problem I see is that they weren't banished to the lands of their enemies, they were just plain banished- Islamic lands were just the best choice of where to go for them.
When you try and move them like this most would probally choose to head to North Africa anyway.

Exactly. If given the choice to flee to the nearest non-hostile ports it is clear that the Moriscos would add to the might of the Maghreb if one thinks about it, so the idea was to place them where they must cling to the Spanish Authorities or be at the mercy of Hostile Christians.

The error was presumption of severe hostility on the part of said Christians.

HTG

 

[MerryPrankster]

This was an interesting discussion.

THREAD NECROMANCY!!

 

[Jordal]

Frederick II, the Holy Roman Emperor, in 1224 moved a large group of "Saracens" from Sicily to mainland southern Italy where they founded a colony, Lucera. In 1300, Charles II of Naples sacked the city and expelled all the Muslims. Still, there is precedent.

 

[htgriffin]

Frederick II, the Holy Roman Emperor, in 1224 moved a large group of "Saracens" from Sicily to mainland southern Italy where they founded a colony, Lucera. In 1300, Charles II of Naples sacked the city and expelled all the Muslims. Still, there is precedent.

Nice point. The only jump is the idea that the Protestants would be as exterminationist as the Angevins... and given the deep hostility to the Hapsburgs and the religious factionalism that is not certain to say the least.

HTG

 

[MerryPrankster]

Nice point. The only jump is the idea that the Protestants would be as exterminationist as the Angevins... and given the deep hostility to the Hapsburgs and the religious factionalism that is not certain to say the least.

HTG

Factionalism might actually benefit the Moorish exiles--some Protestants might view the Moors as allies against the Hapsburgs who dumped them there, while others might view them as Hapsburg proxies who need to be exterminated.

Plus the factionalism could lead to greater exchange of ideas between Islam and (Protestant) Christianity.

 

[htgriffin]

Factionalism might actually benefit the Moorish exiles--some Protestants might view the Moors as allies against the Hapsburgs who dumped them there, while others might view them as Hapsburg proxies who need to be exterminated.

Exactly, although my presumption is that the Moors rebel the first chance they get more often than not... and in many cases attempt to preach the True Faith.

HTG

 

[Valdemar II]

Exactly, although my presumption is that the Moors rebel the first chance they get more often than not... and in many cases attempt to preach the True Faith.

HTG

I doubt they would do that, it's more likely that they would turn inward like the Jews, anything else would only end up with them being exterminated as a group.

 

[htgriffin]

I doubt they would do that, it's more likely that they would turn inward like the Jews, anything else would only end up with them being exterminated as a group.

Throwing open gates to the Protestants or fleeing to thier lines and fighing under their colors would get them killed?

Make no mistake, Islam is gone in the Spanish Netherlands... however they will shrink what a fair number will be scattered in the United Provences and the Germanies.

HTG

 

[MerryPrankster]

I doubt they would do that, it's more likely that they would turn inward like the Jews, anything else would only end up with them being exterminated as a group.

Eventually, but there might be some *interesting* developments between the initial deportation and the Moriscos' final neutering.

 

[Valdemar II]

Throwing open gates to the Protestants or fleeing to thier lines and fighing under their colors would get them killed?

At best the Protestant would give asylum, but if they begins to preach, the Christians would kill them off. They will learn fast that it's a good idea to keep from trying to converting the locals.

 

[Valdemar II]

Eventually, but there might be some *interesting* developments between the initial deportation and the Moriscos' final neutering.

Don't misunderstand me I think with a little luck and a lot of intelligens they can survive. A good Idea would be to emigrate to north east Germany where the low population (and the need for a bigger one) could make the local ruler more tolerant. But I think if they survive to 19th century they would be a lot different from other muslim groups, and it would not be unlikely that they would be seen a heretics.

 

[Valdemar II]

Another potentiel scenario is that they convert to calvinism, which has superficial similarity with Islam especially in the start.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Another potentiel scenario is that they convert to calvinism, which has superficial similarity with Islam especially in the start.

Superficial similarity with Islam? Are you talking about predestination?

Earlier in the discussion, I mentioned an exchange of ideas between the two due to some similarities.

Other than Morisco Calvinists, what are some possible outcomes of an encounter between early Calvinism and Morisco Islam (which had some Christian attributes like Sunday sabbaths, no 5x/day prayers, etc)?

 

[Valdemar II]

Superficial similarity with Islam? Are you talking about predestination?

No I'm thinking more about the superficial trait like the hostility to imagery, the mixture beetween Church and State which even more extreme than in the rest of Europe and the importants of merchant and trade.

Earlier in the discussion, I mentioned an exchange of ideas between the two due to some similarities.

Other than Morisco Calvinists, what are some possible outcomes of an encounter between early Calvinism and Morisco Islam (which had some Christian attributes like Sunday sabbaths, no 5x/day prayers, etc)?

I think that Morisco Islam would more likely to adopt trait from Christianity (especially the calvinist) than the other way around. Few prayer are likely, changing of the muslim fast (to a more catholic fast), accept of pigeating, maybe a growing importants of Jesus and adoption of Solaryear instead of the Lunayear. Sunday sabbath are unlikely.

 

[htgriffin]

At best the Protestant would give asylum, but if they begins to preach, the Christians would kill them off. They will learn fast that it's a good idea to keep from trying to converting the locals.

My point is that by the 1500s and later they would be no more of a target than all the other heretical factions floating about. Consider the Mennonites.

Another potentiel scenario is that they convert to calvinism, which has superficial similarity with Islam especially in the start.

Or the other way around, although I can see quite a few Crypto-Muslims considering Calvinism less offencive than Catholic Idolatry.

I think that Morisco Islam would more likely to adopt trait from Christianity (especially the calvinist) than the other way around. Few prayer are likely, changing of the muslim fast (to a more catholic fast), accept of pigeating, maybe a growing importants of Jesus and adoption of Solaryear instead of the Lunayear. Sunday sabbath are unlikely.

Someone once pointed out that this could easily work in both directions. Various Protestant sects retaining Lent... only it looks more like Ramadan.

HTG

 

[Valdemar II]

My point is that by the 1500s and later they would be no more of a target than all the other heretical factions floating about. Consider the Mennonites.

They're going to be a lot more hunted, they're in the eyes of the christians a worse heretical group than any protestant fraction. Try to look at Europe the only non-Christian group which survived was the Jews, and they had the thing going for them that they were the original Abrahamic group, while the Muslims was a new heretical group.

Or the other way around, although I can see quite a few Crypto-Muslims considering Calvinism less offencive than Catholic Idolatry.

My thougths too.

Someone once pointed out that this could easily work in both directions. Various Protestant sects retaining Lent... only it looks more like Ramadan.

HTG

Unlikely the Ramadan is not something which is going to end up in North Europe, if you have dealt with Muslim in the Ramadan especially in the long summerday you going to understand why. Beside the Ramadan wouldn't fit in christianity, there are no part of Bible which indicate that the Ramadan would be part of Christianity.

 

[MerryPrankster]

Beside the Ramadan wouldn't fit in christianity, there are no part of Bible which indicate that the Ramadan would be part of Christianity.

What Biblical basis is there for Lent?

Besides, we're talking folk custom, not formal doctrine.

 

[Valdemar II]

What Biblical basis is there for Lent?

Besides, we're talking folk custom, not formal doctrine.

While I am not strong on the old testament, the basis for the Lent should lie in the exile in Egypt, and that the Jews fasted under the seven plagues, or when they left Egypt.

 

[Condottiero]

While I am not strong on the old testament, the basis for the Lent should lie in the exile in Egypt, and that the Jews fasted under the seven plagues, or when they left Egypt.

They are the forty days Jesus spent in the desert being tempted by the Devil.

 

[Ridwan Asher]

Well this is just to interesting of a thread to not necro-ing with

I wonder how will these muslims affect the future of the Netherlands ITTL, especially if some of them will participate in VOC's voyages.....