WI Rhenish Moriscos

POD: In the wake of the Morisco Revolts of 1568, some wise soul in the Hasburg Court pointed out that banishing the rebels to the lands of their enemies in North Africa was potentially a bad idea, Instead it would be better to deport them to the Spanish Crown's Burgundian lands, where they will be surrounded by Christian rivals and have no choice but to remain loyal/obedient to thier Spanish overlords. To that end, more than 75,000 were shipped and marched to settlements in the Franche-Comte and Spanish Netherlands by 1580.

By 1595, the guy who thought up that scheme died in disgrace, having narrowly escaped prison.

Entire villages in Franche-Comte fled into the Calvinist Jura, while many settled in an area of Geneva known as the 'Moorish Quarter.' Roughly half of them reverted to Islam openly, while the remaining crypto-Muslims saw the teachings of Jean Calvin as a bridge to the True Faith... or at least a less distasteful cloak for same.

The situation in Brabant and Flanders was even more inauspicious. After the gates to Antwerp were opened to the rebels by an alleged Morisco there were frightful attempts to cow the new settlers... which merely insured open flight and the formation of a regiment in return for the right to openly practice Islam. Others migrated more quietly into France where they blended in with the Heugenots(sp?) or across into Aachen and Juelisch-Kleve-Berg.

By the 17th century there were scattered communities of Muslims from Amsterdam to Geneva, growing both by natural reproduction and (due to the religious ferment of the Reformation) conversion. Many remained in thier own towns and villiages, but a full third established themselves in various cities as tradesmen. These communities were also the source of a disproportionate degree of theological scholarship both in Arabic and the local veranculars (the publication in 1610 of the bilingual Kuran Utrecht* in Nederlands and transliterated Arabic was largely seen as unprecedented... but soon proved far from unique). The writings of the physician Jozef Abensen on properly keeping the faith in a wholly infidel land such as the court of Copenhagen gained him a seat at Al-Azhar. The Thirty Years War found many 'Moorish' mercenaries fighting for the Protestant cause as well as missionaries quietly recruiting refugees, and it's end left penny packets throught the northern HRE both in monoreligious hamlets and major cities.

(*: The orthography for this tome, with only minor modifications, remains the most accepted romanization system for Arabic)

Long term ramifications?

HTG
 
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Thande

Donor
Well, it's an interesting and different idea...

I think 1610 is a bit early for a Koran in any language other than Arabic - even now in OTL, translations into other languages aren't considered the 'real' Koran, and translations into other languages by Muslims for Muslims (as opposed to by curious Western academics) didn't take place until much later ,and were controversial even then. Still I suppose if they're bound up with the same radicalism that gripped the Protestants, if could happen...
 
Considering how theocratic Calvinists tended to be (at least in Geneva), I could imagine bad things happening to Christians (or at least Calvinists) who convert to Islam.

Islam and Calvinism are both predestinationist / "God is in control...of absolutely everything." Pointing out that Calvinism would be seen as a bridge between Islam and Catholicism was a good one.

I wonder when enemies of Calvinism will try to claim that Calvinism is Islam in Christian clothing. Calvin's Geneva was set up so that "God's law governed every area of life"--it was like a Protestant Shari'ah.

Will there be any new sects combining Islamic and Christian elements will arise? There were lots of weird Anabaptist sects running around at this time as well, including a lot in the Rhineland.

Reform Baptist jihads?

I think a vernacular Koran would be a likely consequence of Islam being introduced into the Reformation.
 
Well, it's an interesting and different idea...

I think 1610 is a bit early for a Koran in any language other than Arabic - even now in OTL, translations into other languages aren't considered the 'real' Koran, and translations into other languages by Muslims for Muslims (as opposed to by curious Western academics) didn't take place until much later ,and were controversial even then. Still I suppose if they're bound up with the same radicalism that gripped the Protestants, if could happen...

I think you are projecting backwards a lot of the biases of the Wahabbi sect. An Imam interested in instructing Flemings and other Germans in the True Faith could easily consider the instructional value in a line-by-line guide to the Holy Book worth it.

HTG
 
Considering how theocratic Calvinists tended to be (at least in Geneva), I could imagine bad things happening to Christians (or at least Calvinists) who convert to Islam.
I agree that the Jura and Geneva would not be a healthy place for actively spreading the Word rather than simple sanctuary. Still, the countryside would be rather more lax than the city... and the Germanies more open still
Islam and Calvinism are both predestinationist / "God is in control...of absolutely everything." Pointing out that Calvinism would be seen as a bridge between Islam and Catholicism was a good one.
I was thinking more of the strict Monotheism they share actually, although you may have a point depending on the school of theology you follow.
I wonder when enemies of Calvinism will try to claim that Calvinism is Islam in Christian clothing. Calvin's Geneva was set up so that "God's law governed every area of life"--it was like a Protestant Shari'ah.
Possible, indeed I am suprised they did not OTL.
Will there be any new sects combining Islamic and Christian elements will arise? There were lots of weird Anabaptist sects running around at this time as well, including a lot in the Rhineland.
Almost certainly. Indeed these are the folks I was thinking most ripe for adopting Islam... and the verancular liturature coming out of the Netherlands for instruction is likely to be aimed more at them than any.

There would be a fair amount of effort to bring these into the fold of something resembling 'Orthodox' Sunni Islam, but yes there are certain to be a number of interesting faiths between the religious contact and half-forgotten rights of the Conversos.
Reform Baptist jihads?
You mean we did not have them already?
I think a vernacular Koran would be a likely consequence of Islam being introduced into the Reformation.
Arabic has too high a status, and the Quran is too closely linked to the whole Unchanged From The Dication To The Prophet thing, for it to be transfered wholly to the verancular.

A Latin orthography becoming as widely used than the original script, however, is perhaps more likely.

HTG
 
There were violent Anabaptists, but I think it was more a matter of a minority giving the majority a bad name.

I had in mind perhaps some sect combining Anabaptist millenarianism with Islamic holy war doctrines and the creation of some kind of Baptist-Muslim theocratic sect (perhaps a more successful Muenster commune or a decent-sized ummah in the Rhineland).

Hmm...might some Christian sects pick up circumcision as an initiation rite from the Muslims? Probably less popular than being baptized (again if necessary), but it might still exist.

Strict monotheism? Calvinist doctrines re: the nature of God are the same as other Christians. Or are you referring to saints, angels, that sort of thing?

A vernacular Koran does not something adopted by the majority of the Muslim population in northern Europe. Most of them might use Arabic or Arabic-in-Latin-script Korans, and some freaky sect might have a fully German or Dutch Korean and get criticized (or violently attacked) by the more orthodox Muslims for it.
 
Possible, indeed I am suprised they did not OTL.

In Northern Europe, they might have been less aware of Islam and how Islam lacks separation of church/state.

Of course, most European nations did not have separation of church/state either, but I don't know if Christianity was as omnipresent as Islam.

Here's another idea...Protestants might retain Lent, and it might start looking more like Ramadan.
 
This could be intersting.

Might the British Isles remain steadfastly Christian while much of Europe embraces Islam?
 
Might the British Isles remain steadfastly Christian while much of Europe embraces Islam?

I doubt too much of Europe would embrace islam but a couple of percentage points throughout central europe and the rhine could make things rather interesting. I agree that the potental for calvinist islamic sects is a possibility that is too good to pass up. The only question is how islamic do we want to make them?
 
I doubt too much of Europe would embrace islam but a couple of percentage points throughout central europe and the rhine could make things rather interesting. I agree that the potental for calvinist islamic sects is a possibility that is too good to pass up. The only question is how islamic do we want to make them?

I was just thinking that having Islamgaining a foothold in Central Europe would be interesting, considering events in southeastern europe around the same time.
 
Here's an idea.

How about an Islamic sect that replaces circumcision with baptism?

Here's another idea.

The Islamic idea that human sin is rooted in man forgetting his true purpose is a somewhat less accusatory version of Calvinist-emphasized Romans 1, which seems to state that man knows about God through nature but "suppresses the truth in wickedness."

Might there be some theological potential there?
 
I was just thinking that having Islamgaining a foothold in Central Europe would be interesting, considering events in southeastern europe around the same time.

Someone might assume the Muslims in the Rhineland are an Ottoman "Fifth Column" and try to exterminate them, which might ironically cause said Muslims to try to make common cause with the Ottomans.

Or perhaps the Islamic sects in the Rhineland pick up the notion of separation of church and state from some of the persecuted Christian sects and declare holy war against the Ottomans?
 
I doubt too much of Europe would embrace islam but a couple of percentage points throughout central europe and the rhine could make things rather interesting. I agree that the potental for calvinist islamic sects is a possibility that is too good to pass up. The only question is how islamic do we want to make them?

Given the variation within Islam that is a very hard question.

HTG
 
Here's another idea.

The Islamic idea that human sin is rooted in man forgetting his true purpose is a somewhat less accusatory version of Calvinist-emphasized Romans 1, which seems to state that man knows about God through nature but "suppresses the truth in wickedness."

Might there be some theological potential there?

Hopefully a mellower Calvinism?

HTG
 
Someone might assume the Muslims in the Rhineland are an Ottoman "Fifth Column" and try to exterminate them, which might ironically cause said Muslims to try to make common cause with the Ottomans.
By the late 16th/early 17th century? The Hasburgs are a lot scarier to the local Germans/French/Swiss than the Ottomans... and the Moriscos do not like the former at all.
Or perhaps the Islamic sects in the Rhineland pick up the notion of separation of church and state from some of the persecuted Christian sects and declare holy war against the Ottomans?
Doubtful. Indeed the religious toleration of the Ottomans is oft pointed to as an example a lot of the christian princes could follow even if they fail to take up the True Faith.

HTG
 
Might the British Isles remain steadfastly Christian while much of Europe embraces Islam?

For values of Embrace that mean 'Fail to Exterminate Out Of Hand'? Possibly the Stuarts, but I doubt the Commonwealth would emulate them.

Interesting side effects would be Germans, Nederlanders, and likely Englishmen "of the Mohammedian Faith" being rather well intergrated into the societies along the Rhine and North Sea by the 1800s (largely merchants and soldiers by preferred trade, although bumpkins in the Jura and Franche Comte prefer sheepherding and farming). Consider the influence of _that_ on the Age of Imperialism.

HTG
 
One interesting point I see is that it will take the french revolution to grant full citizen rights to Muslims, like jews and protestants. Also likely, Concordat will cover Islam. Both will have interesting repercutions when France go colonial - eg OTL, france granted full citizenship to all algerian jews when it annexed algeria -.
 
Doubtful. Indeed the religious toleration of the Ottomans is oft pointed to as an example a lot of the christian princes could follow even if they fail to take up the True Faith.
HTG

I was actually referring to how the Ottoman Sultan was also the Caliph (a Catholic analogy would be if the Holy Roman Emperor was also the Pope).

Some Muslims might object to such a thing if they pick up the "two swords" doctrine (State and Church have their own separate spheres of authority and they ought not to mix) from Christianity.
 
An Excuse To Bump

One interesting point I see is that it will take the french revolution to grant full citizen rights to Muslims, like jews and protestants. Also likely, Concordat will cover Islam. Both will have interesting repercutions when France go colonial - eg OTL, france granted full citizenship to all algerian jews when it annexed algeria -.

Be an interesting effect on absorbtion of Algeria into the French Metropole, although there is likely to be some knee-jerk resistance to Gallicisation

Said Moriscos would be highly probable go-betweens and administrators in anything like OTL's Age of Imperialism.

HTG
 
Good idea.
The problem I see is that they weren't banished to the lands of their enemies, they were just plain banished- Islamic lands were just the best choice of where to go for them.
When you try and move them like this most would probally choose to head to North Africa anyway.
 
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