WI: REVENGE class at Jutland

[RLBH]

The QUEEN ELIZABETH class were rather controversial in their day. Let's say the naysayers win and the RN instead gets four REVENGE class battleships and a repeat TIGER - let's say LEOPARD - in the 1912 programme, completing in late 1914/early 1915. In the 1913 programme, four more REVENGE class are ordered to complete a homogeneous division, though as per OTL only two are ready in time for Jutland. We assume, arguendo, that the German fleet sorties for the Skaggerak operation on 30th May 1916 as per OTL.

How does the Battle of Jutland go if Evan-Thomas's command is slower and less numerous, but better armoured, whilst Beatty has an extra ship?

Would the 5th Battle Squadron still replace 3rd Battle Cruiser Squadron for gunnery practice in this case, or would a different substitution be made?

 

[sonofpegasus]

Due to the lack of speed I would expect the R's to remain with the Grand Fleet.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I agree with Sonofpegasus. 3 Revenge class had joined the fleet by 31st May 1916 and they were allocated to the 3 existing battle squadrons piecemeal. Revenge went to the First Battle Squadron and Royal Oak the 4th Battle Squadron. Royal Sovereign missed the battle because of machinery defects, IIRC it was her condensers. The 4 ships built instead of the Queen Elisabeths would probably have been allocated in the same fashion rather than being formed into a homogenous unit.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

The QUEEN ELIZABETH class were rather controversial in their day.

Were they? The only thing I've ever seen about the QEs being "controversial" was the decision to make them oil fired. Design-wise, they were a logical progression of the dreadnought and super-dreadnought building programme. The QEs were generally considered excellent Capital Ships and the "gambles" in their design, which came from committee rather than an individual so can't be considered that 'extreme', (oil fired propulsion, reduced quantity but larger caliber main guns) were swiftly proved successes. The Revenge class were a downgraded QE (mixed fuel due to concerns over supplies of oil, smaller and with lower powered engines) due to the looming conflict. Would the Rs be built without QEs being built first? Their post-WWI careers would suggest that the Admiralty saw them as a mistake - to paraphrase Churchill "they were a source of constant anxiety, and ...the Admiralty keep them as many thousands of miles away from the enemy as possible".

 

[RLBH]

The only thing I've ever seen about the QEs being "controversial" was the decision to make them oil fired.

That's more or less what I had in mind - it was oil firing that made the speed of the QUEEN ELIZABETHs possible. Go back to mixed firing, and you wind up not far from a REVENGE. Maybe a slightly larger one, but basically a 21-knot, 8 x 15-inch gunned battleship.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

That's more or less what I had in mind - it was oil firing that made the speed of the QUEEN ELIZABETHs possible. Go back to mixed firing, and you wind up not far from a REVENGE. Maybe a slightly larger one, but basically a 21-knot, 8 x 15-inch gunned battleship.

Then the Line at Jutland is more homogenous affair and either:

(A) Beatty in the Battlecruiser fleet is more restrained as he knows he'll be isolated if anything goes pear-shaped without the fast Battleships to back him up
-or-
(B) Beatty is totally destroyed as there's nothing in the Grand Fleet that can catch up to him when he blunders into the High Seas Fleet

 

[Lost Freeway]

Didn't two of the Revenge class participate in Jutland IOTL?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Didn't two of the Revenge class participate in Jutland IOTL?

See post #3 mate

 

[hipper]

That's more or less what I had in mind - it was oil firing that made the speed of the QUEEN ELIZABETHs possible. Go back to mixed firing, and you wind up not far from a REVENGE. Maybe a slightly larger one, but basically a 21-knot, 8 x 15-inch gunned battleship.

The Revenge class were never mixed fuel. Fischer changed the Boiler design to all oil firing during construction. They were given smaller engines and were deliberately slower than the Queen Elizabeth's

 

[RLBH]

The Revenge class were never mixed fuel. Fischer changed the Boiler design to all oil firing during construction. They were given smaller engines and were deliberately slower than the Queen Elizabeth's

They were designed that way, though - an earlier incarnation would probably stay that way.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

The Revenge class were never mixed fuel. Fischer changed the Boiler design to all oil firing during construction. They were given smaller engines and were deliberately slower than the Queen Elizabeth's

I've just re-read my Conway's and you're right. I apologise - that'll teach me to rely on Wikipedia in a rush! It says the Rs were converted in January 1915 - would that be in response to the success of the QE's trials with her all oil-fired boilers? If the QEs aren't built, there's more chance they would stay mixed fuel and therefore slower.

 

[sonofpegasus]

With so many R class being ordered my what if is:- rather than 8 R's an additional 3 QE's are ordered and then an additional 3 added later. This could have seen an extra 2/3 Q/E's with the 5th Battle Squadron at Jutland. With the QE herself being in refit this then could have given two divisions of four fast battle ships. That might have hurt Hipper's ships badly!

 

[Deleted member 94680]

With so many R class being ordered my what if is:- rather than 8 R's an additional 3 QE's are ordered and then an additional 3 added later. This could have seen an extra 2/3 Q/E's with the 5th Battle Squadron at Jutland. With the QE herself being in refit this then could have given two divisions of four fast battle ships. That might have hurt Hipper's ships badly!

So... there are no Rs now? There are 8 QEs instead?

More costly, which makes it unlikely (main reason for the R's design "failures" was cost saving) but if there were 8 QEs then Jutland probably becomes a clear British win.

If there are more QEs responding to the Battlecruiser action (even with Beatty being an idiot) then the Germans get hideously mauled. The Germans were surprised at the accuracy of British fire - with the QE's ability to take punishment - which would probably mean the early actions would be decisive British wins.

 

[sonofpegasus]

In OTL there were 5 QE's plus there were 8 Revenge class ordered of which only five were completed. IMEP I was suggesting that six repeat QE's instead of eight Revenge's (That allows each QE. to cost 1/3 more than a Revenge class for the same overall spend) with three of the Repeats ( hence they are still being called the R class) being ready in time for Jutland.

 

[Deleted member 94680]

In OTL there were 5 QE's plus there were 8 Revenge class ordered of which only five were completed. IMEP I was suggesting that six repeat QE's instead of eight Revenge's (That allows each QE. to cost 1/3 more than a Revenge class for the same overall spend) with three of the Repeats ( hence they are still being called the R class) being ready in time for Jutland.

So 7 QEs at Jutland? Would the 'new' 3 form a 6th Battle Squadron (the other 6th was disbanded in '15, I believe), or would the 5th Battle Squadron be enlarged? I only ask, as it may effect where they are in the Line for Jutland.

If there's a 5th/6th Battle Squadron along with the Battlecruiser Fleet, then my previous post stands I reckon. The German Battlecruisers get mauled and Hipper probably ends up on the seabed.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

These are the construction costs of a spreadsheet I made some time ago. The information comes from Jane's Fighting Ships 1939 unless otherwise stated:

£3,014,103 Queen Elisabeth
£2,945,709 Malaya
£2,524,148 Warspite
£2,468,269 Royal Oak - This was the only construction cost quoted for a Revenge class ship.
£2,038,225 Courageous (Cost of construction as a light battle-cruiser). Source: R. A. Burt, British Battleships 1919-39
£1,967,223 Glorious (Cost of construction as a light battle-cruiser). Source: R. A. Burt, British Battleships 1919-39
£3,117,204 Renown
£2,829,087 Repulse
£6,025,000 Hood

IIRC (and I'm not that sure that I do) the estimated costs for both the Queen Elisabeth class and the Revenge class was £2.5 million per ship. While the actual cost for the 12 superdreadnoughts was about £2 million each and the cost of HMS Dreadnoughts was £1.7 million.

Is it me or do these prices seem ridiculously low in spite of 100 years of inflation? Those sums wouldn't buy an average (association) football player now. Though for comparison the first £100 transfer fee was in 1893; £1,000 in 1897; £5,000 and 1922; and £10,000 in 1928.

 

[Saphroneth]

Is it me or do these prices seem ridiculously low in spite of 100 years of inflation? Those sums wouldn't buy an average (association) football player now.

DK Brown notes that British construction was very efficient cost-wise (right through WW2, though especially in WW1) because of sheer accumulated experience. And I think it's also because there's no electronics and stuff - there were big guns which were hard to learn, but easy to do once you had the production line and the trained men.
QEs and other heavy BBs were cheap because they were purchased in large and standardized lots - economy of scale very much applies. Just in the DN era the RN took delivery of ships with

DN
114 12" guns
130 13.5" guns
80 15" guns

BC
40 12"
32 13.5"
12 15"

So even the 15" gun had 92 examples built by the delivery of the Renowns, and the other guns were significantly more common.

 

[RLBH]

Generally, costs of defence equipment are best compared as a proportion of GDP. Scaled from 1912 to 2015 on that basis, a QUEEN ELIZABETH class battleship cost the equivalent of £2.43 billion - a pretty good indicator of perceived value to the nation.

Actual construction cost should more-or-less track with labour costs. On that basis, QUEEN ELIZABETH comes out as costing £1.07 billion. Still a lot - but much more reasonable than the £269 million that just tracking RPI inflation gets you.

 

[sonofpegasus]

If The R class QE's are built as and laid down to the same schedule as per OTL Revenge class then it is just possible that due to the economy of scale and experience gained in building so many ships of the same class that at least one extra is available for Jutland.. In OTL both Portsmouth and Devonport built a QE and a Revenge at the same time, with Devonport due to start another Revenge and Portsmouth a QE in 1914.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

If The R class QE's are built as and laid down to the same schedule as per OTL Revenge class then it is just possible that due to the economy of scale and experience gained in building so many ships of the same class that at least one extra is available for Jutland.. In OTL both Portsmouth and Devonport built a QE and a Revenge at the same time, with Devonport due to start another Revenge and Portsmouth a QE in 1914.

It might not be possible to build enough 15" gun turrets. Repulse and Renown used 6 of the 16 turrets ordered for the 3 R class and one Queen Elisabeth in the 1914-15 building programme. I don't know but, I but suspect, that the 3 Follies used some of the remainder (IIRC a set of 15" turrets was made as a backup for Furious in the event of her 18" guns being failures). Ramillies wasn't completed until September 1917, because the turrets ordered for her were diverted to monitors.

However, had the Queen Elisabeths as we know them had not been built I think the Admiralty would have wanted scaled up Iron Dukes armed with ten 15" in five twin turrets (A, B, Q, X and Y positions) and a scaled up Tiger armed with eight 15" in four twin turrets (in A, B, X and Y positions). The orders would have been as follows:

1912-13 programme: 4 Super Iron Dukes and one Super Tiger vice the 5 Queen Elisabeths;
1913-14 programme: 4 Super Iron Dukes and one Super Tiger vice the 5 Revenges;
1914-15 programme: 3 Super Iron Dukes and one Super Tiger vice the 3 Revenges and one Queen Elisabeth ordered, but cancelled because the war was expected to be over before Christmas.

Since about the 1909-10 programme the Admiralty's battleship requirements had been (IIRC) the German Fleet plus 60%. The Germans had been ordering 3 capital ships a year over that period (2 battleships and one battle cruiser), which meant the British had ordered 5 per year in retaliation. But when the 1914-15 programme came around the Germans had cut their programme to 2 a year, which allowed the British to cut their programme from 5 ships a year to 4 ships a year.