WI Return of monarchy in Portugal?

abc123

Banned
Let's say that Antonio de Oliviera Salazar decided in 1930s to reinstate monarchy in Portugal and invited Duarte Nuno, Duke of Braganza to return in Portugal to become King?
Let's say that POD is 1932. when ex-king Manuel died and was buried in Lisbon with great public ceremony.
Or in 1951, when president of Republic Carmona died and Salazar thought about the return of monarchy?
 

abc123

Banned
And also, what if Portugal in 1974., after the Carnation Revolution decided to grant independence to Guinea Bissao, Angola and Mozambique, but to keep Cape Verde, Sao Tome e Principe and Cabinda as a overseas provinces, with same or greater autonomy as Azores and Madeira?
There is enough oil in Cabinda to pay for that. And besides that, people in Cabinda don't want to be part of Angola.
;)
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Would Salazar even want that. He don't really seems to be that much of a monarchist to me, and certainly not a person willing to risk having to share power with somebody. And in the 30's he already had his semi- fascist thing going on.

That being said, monarchist revival in Portugal could cause butterflies in Spain. If Salazar successfully restore the monarchy without losing any power or influence, Franco might consider doing the same.
 

abc123

Banned
Would Salazar even want that. He don't really seems to be that much of a monarchist to me, and certainly not a person willing to risk having to share power with somebody. And in the 30's he already had his semi- fascist thing going on.

That being said, monarchist revival in Portugal could cause butterflies in Spain. If Salazar successfully restore the monarchy without losing any power or influence, Franco might consider doing the same.

Well, OFC that he would reinstate some constitutional monarchy ( puppet-king ) but that can be very useful to him.
To be king's prime minister is better than to be a dictator-prime minister. A face-savng measure. And for a deeply conservative and clerical person and those in Portugal who supported him, what an be better than to return to glorious history of Portugal. Portugal WAS monarchy since 13. century at least.
Mussolini has know that very good.
 

Lusitania

Donor
You are asking two very different and completely different question: Monarchy and keeping some territory.

On the Topic of Monarchy, would Salazar have followed Franco's lead. In 1947 Franco nominated the then child (Juan Carlos) of the heir Infante Juan as the future king apon his death. Franco rulled as "regent" in name. But a the Spanish king had fled (he never renounced) in 1931 which was shortly followed by Spanish civil war. So the time lag was small in comparison to the Portuguese.

The Portuguese on the other hand had deposed the Portuguese king in 1910. The Portuguese King died in 1932 in London without any issue, he had no surviving brothers the line then passed to the Miguelista side of the Braganza which has been exiled by King Manuel's great-grandmother Maria I. It would in my opinion been difficult for Salazar for follow the Spanish example with a less than clear cut succession. I think had Manuel had issue then Salazar could of restored the Monarchy as a means of glorifying the nation.

On the topic of Portugal having kept some lands in Africa, well I can tell you the real jewel that Portugal wanted to keep was Angola. During this summer a former Portuguese Prime Minister "Mario Soares" talked about that Capo Verde would of been much better off if they had remained part of Portugal and not gone their way.

In the revolutionary days of 1974-1975 the desire for Portugal was to end its 15 year+ colonial war and bring its soldiers home. I do not believe there was any desire or vision to keep these parts as part of Portugal unless there had been a clear desire by the people there to stay Portuguese. The majority of the population in these enclave and islands was African and unfortunetly there was a clear desire by many to go their own way. Cabinda did not want to be part of Angola but the rebels there wanted their own country and they would also demand that the money from the oil be used there not in Lisboa.
 

abc123

Banned
You are asking two very different and completely different question: Monarchy and keeping some territory.

On the Topic of Monarchy, would Salazar have followed Franco's lead. In 1947 Franco nominated the then child (Juan Carlos) of the heir Infante Juan as the future king apon his death. Franco rulled as "regent" in name. But a the Spanish king had fled (he never renounced) in 1931 which was shortly followed by Spanish civil war. So the time lag was small in comparison to the Portuguese.

The Portuguese on the other hand had deposed the Portuguese king in 1910. The Portuguese King died in 1932 in London without any issue, he had no surviving brothers the line then passed to the Miguelista side of the Braganza which has been exiled by King Manuel's great-grandmother Maria I. It would in my opinion been difficult for Salazar for follow the Spanish example with a less than clear cut succession. I think had Manuel had issue then Salazar could of restored the Monarchy as a means of glorifying the nation.

On the topic of Portugal having kept some lands in Africa, well I can tell you the real jewel that Portugal wanted to keep was Angola. During this summer a former Portuguese Prime Minister "Mario Soares" talked about that Capo Verde would of been much better off if they had remained part of Portugal and not gone their way.

In the revolutionary days of 1974-1975 the desire for Portugal was to end its 15 year+ colonial war and bring its soldiers home. I do not believe there was any desire or vision to keep these parts as part of Portugal unless there had been a clear desire by the people there to stay Portuguese. The majority of the population in these enclave and islands was African and unfortunetly there was a clear desire by many to go their own way. Cabinda did not want to be part of Angola but the rebels there wanted their own country and they would also demand that the money from the oil be used there not in Lisboa.


Bold: But he would glorify the Nation with ANY reinstating of monarchy- right?
In today's Portugal nobody disputes that current head of dinasty of Braganza is the legitimate heir?


Solution for undelined: IMPERIALISM.
:D
Angola would be a too big chunk. But Cape Verde and Sao Tome and Cabinda could be very easy pacifed, and with improving their life I don't think that they would be very unsatisfied with portuguese rule. They would be equal citizens of Portugal after all.
;)
 
I would think that it might just be possible to restore the Monarchy to Portugal. I might think that a better time to have done it would be in 1943. It was clear that the allies would win the war and restoring the monarchy might just be the trick to improve Portugal's image after a fliration with the Nazi's.

I would tend to think that it just might have been possible to hold Angola. Things were not as bad as one would be lead to believe. The Portuguese Colonial Army was actually winning the war.
 

abc123

Banned
I would tend to think that it just might have been possible to hold Angola. Things were not as bad as one would be lead to believe. The Portuguese Colonial Army was actually winning the war.

True. But, they lost "Lust fur macht"!
:mad:

If Portugal was Kingdom, than it's maybe possible to Angola or Mosambique becom dominions, like dominions in Commonwealth.
Portuguese Commonwealth;)
 

archaeogeek

Banned
True. But, they lost "Lust fur macht"!
:mad:

If Portugal was Kingdom, than it's maybe possible to Angola or Mosambique becom dominions, like dominions in Commonwealth.
Portuguese Commonwealth;)

The UN is still going to come knocking; the only country willing to support Portuguese colonial ambitions in 75 was South Africa.
 

abc123

Banned
The UN is still going to come knocking; the only country willing to support Portuguese colonial ambitions in 75 was South Africa.


I know, I know...
:(
Also, if Angola/Mozambique were included in Portugal, they would have larger population than Portugal, so no sence in that.;)
 

Lusitania

Donor
I would think that it might just be possible to restore the Monarchy to Portugal. I might think that a better time to have done it would be in 1943. It was clear that the allies would win the war and restoring the monarchy might just be the trick to improve Portugal's image after a fliration with the Nazi's.

While Salazar might of been of the same stripe (rightwing/facist) as Franco, Hitler and Mousolini he knew very well what Portugal's limitations were and per his memoirs thought Hitler was a complete nutcase. So did Portugal need to fix their image, I am not sure. If he did bring in the Monarchy what it would of needed to do to integrate these colonies is bring them into the empire, give titles and grant to people there. Portugal allways had a policy that if you spoke Portuguese you could become Portuguese citizen (even the colonials) so it might of brought the kingdom/country more time.

I would tend to think that it just might have been possible to hold Angola. Things were not as bad as one would be lead to believe. The Portuguese Colonial Army was actually winning the war.

True. But, they lost "Lust fur macht"!
:mad:

That is correct they had lost their will to fight and sustain casualties, same could be said for Iraq and Afganistan America is winning but will it continue having the will to fight. I think that continental Africa is out of the question and any part that it want to keep would have to be able to vote and that mean that indepence parties could exist. So it would be up to the people living there to decide if they wanted to stay part of Portugal.


If Portugal was Kingdom, than it's maybe possible to Angola or Mosambique becom dominions, like dominions in Commonwealth.
Portuguese Commonwealth;)

They were already Portuguese provinces, the problem would be that the franchise of elections, freedom be brought to them without bloodshed when the Portuguese did not have it themselves.


The UN is still going to come knocking; the only country willing to support Portuguese colonial ambitions in 75 was South Africa.

Yes and look what it got both Rhodesia and South Africa, worldwide condemnation and sanctions. As long as both USA and Russia were willing to back the Rebels then Portugal's chances in Africa are very limited. Remember both Russia and USA had written off Portugal and were already in bed with the rebels each trying to place their proxy in power.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
I would think that it might just be possible to restore the Monarchy to Portugal. I might think that a better time to have done it would be in 1943. It was clear that the allies would win the war and restoring the monarchy might just be the trick to improve Portugal's image after a fliration with the Nazi's.

I would tend to think that it just might have been possible to hold Angola. Things were not as bad as one would be lead to believe. The Portuguese Colonial Army was actually winning the war.
Yes, but that war would have started again a couple of years after the Portuguese victory. Angola was approaching a situation of constant rebellion. The Angolans had no desire to be Portuguese, and Portugal was tired of sending young men to die in Africa.
 
Bold: But he would glorify the Nation with ANY reinstating of monarchy- right?
In today's Portugal nobody disputes that current head of dinasty of Braganza is the legitimate heir?


Solution for undelined: IMPERIALISM.
:D
Angola would be a too big chunk. But Cape Verde and Sao Tome and Cabinda could be very easy pacifed, and with improving their life I don't think that they would be very unsatisfied with portuguese rule. They would be equal citizens of Portugal after all.
;)
A return of the monarchy would only be possible in Salazar's time if he desperately needed the support of the monarchists to maintain his regime. He deliberately kept things vague regarding a possible restauration of the monarchy in order not to alienate the monarchists, but Salazar himself was not a monarchist (and I remember reading somewhere on a academic paper on the net that Salazar even helped push away his old party from the days of the First Republic (the Catholic Centre) from Monarchism to Republicanism.

The keeping of Cape Verde and São Tomé and Príncipe would be possible with a democratic transition less influenced by the far-left, since the population there was generally supportive of Portugal. The same applies to East-Timor.
Angola while was a military front that was being won, and assuming Portugal kept its forces there for a while more, would sooner or later revert to some form of independence, either as a sort of Commonwealth or full independence, but close to Portugal.
There would be a need for full franchise and besides some parts of the population pushing for independence, some currents of thought in Portugal would have also pushed for independence for Angola given Angola's population and the concept of forming new countries with Portuguese cultural elements embedded in them.

Among the monarchists there is a minor faction associated with the People's Monarchist Party that considers that the House of Barreto (the Dukes of Loulé) are the legitimate claimants.

I hope this helps. :)
 

abc123

Banned
A return of the monarchy would only be possible in Salazar's time if he desperately needed the support of the monarchists to maintain his regime. He deliberately kept things vague regarding a possible restauration of the monarchy in order not to alienate the monarchists, but Salazar himself was not a monarchist (and I remember reading somewhere on a academic paper on the net that Salazar even helped push away his old party from the days of the First Republic (the Catholic Centre) from Monarchism to Republicanism.

The keeping of Cape Verde and São Tomé and Príncipe would be possible with a democratic transition less influenced by the far-left, since the population there was generally supportive of Portugal. The same applies to East-Timor.
Angola while was a military front that was being won, and assuming Portugal kept its forces there for a while more, would sooner or later revert to some form of independence, either as a sort of Commonwealth or full independence, but close to Portugal.
There would be a need for full franchise and besides some parts of the population pushing for independence, some currents of thought in Portugal would have also pushed for independence for Angola given Angola's population and the concept of forming new countries with Portuguese cultural elements embedded in them.

Among the monarchists there is a minor faction associated with the People's Monarchist Party that considers that the House of Barreto (the Dukes of Loulé) are the legitimate claimants.

I hope this helps. :)


Thank you.;)
 
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