WI: Restored Hohenzollern German monarchy post-Nazi Germany?

That would have been successful, Crown Prince Rupprecht and his son Prince Albert were deeply popular and respected before and after the war and would have been popular rulers of Bavaria.
Interesting... So how do you think an independent Bavaria could get started? I was just reading a book about how the US-occupied zone (roughly Bavaria) needed a lot of trade with the British-occupied zone to restore its economy. Oh, and we'd probably need to switch the two occupation zones around (which would mean switching around the rough alignment of troops from D-day on), because I could see the British restoring a king a lot more easily than the US doing it.

Now what effect do you think an independent, presumably West-aligned, Bavaria would have on the Cold War?
 
Interesting... So how do you think an independent Bavaria could get started? I was just reading a book about how the US-occupied zone (roughly Bavaria) needed a lot of trade with the British-occupied zone to restore its economy. Oh, and we'd probably need to switch the two occupation zones around (which would mean switching around the rough alignment of troops from D-day on), because I could see the British restoring a king a lot more easily than the US doing it.

Now what effect do you think an independent, presumably West-aligned, Bavaria would have on the Cold War?

Well I'd imagine that a happy restoration of the Wittlesbach dynasty will be less of a foreign imposition but more as a result of popular support from within the country itself.

Bavaria was in many ways the place where Nazism was created and developed, in a post WW2 they may want to distance themselves from being part of "Germany" and the Nazi past and look back to a more illustrious period in Bavarian history and the natural period to look to was the monarchy.

The Wittlesbach dynasty were Bavaria, even today the current claimant to the Bavarian throne holds a very special position within Bavarian society unrivalled by any other pretender to a defunct throne excluding the Romanian and Serbian dynasty, (Duke Franz lives at the Nymphenberg Palace) his father Duke Albrecht and grandfather Crown Prince Rupprecht even more so,both of whom recieved state funerals one would associate with a deceased monarch. Crown Prince Rupprecht in particular spoke out strongly against the Nazis and was said to have been hated by Hitler.

It seems to me the restoration of the Wittlesbach dynasty relied on two factors:

1)A wider feeling amongst the Bavarian population in the post war period that it was preferable to be an independant state rather than part of West Germany.

2)Upon achieving such independance, there being sufficient goodwill amongst the population for the restoration of the monarchy. I think there would have been.​
 
Bavaria voted against the 1949 constitution because it mandated the Lander be republics. As late as 1954, a majority of the Bavarian parliament wanted to restore the monarchy, but the US shot down the idea. A restoration in an independent Bavaria is certainly possible.
 
Very interesting... Too bad Susano isn't still here.

But talking about the Hohenzollerns... Any chance one of them could set himself up as a symbol of anti-Communism in East Germany?

Hardly in East Germany! The GDR State Police would make short work of him if he tried that under their regime; if they didn't the KGB would make short work of them and put in some more compliant thugs in their place!

As a voice on whatever the CIA called the German-language Voice Of America version, he could try that all he wanted but he'd lack credibility and the Americans would be well advised to show him the door.

Hohenzollerns denouncing Communism is the best propaganda the East German Communists could wish for, is my impression. Anyone that would appeal to is a lost cause to them anyway; it would be pretty easy to discredit all anti-Communism by associating it with the former Prussian monarchy and its high-profile support of the Nazis in the pre-1945 period.

So hmmn, maybe one of them could get a paid safe gig doing that very thing on East German soil after all!:rolleyes:
 
Unlike the rest of the family doesn't appear to of been all that militarily inclined, don't think he ever took part in any fighting during the war, but more interested in engineering.
After Wilhelm's death during the invasion of France no former German prince took part in any fighting, because Hitler prohibited it by the Prinzenerlaß, fearing the sympathy the death of one brought to the dynasty.

In the run-up to World War II, it seems that anyone at all would be better than the Nazi's. Suppose a Royalist faction--part of the army,perhaps--wanted Hitler out, and quietly spoke with western powers. Gaurantees are excahnged, and the monarchists get some funds from the Jews, in exchange for an end to the anti-Jewist program. Get a monarchy before World War II--and now, there's a German faction that might well be seen as a worthwhile counterbalance to the USSR.
A German monarchy before WWII would very likely butterfly away the entire Nazi regime, and therefore WWII as well.

What about by Constitutional amendment peacefully voted in?
Impossible, the republican principle is part of the unchangeable principles of the constitution.

A restoration of the Hohenzollern dynasty is ASB. Remember the Nazis not only carved up the State of Prussia, but wanted to eliminate everything Prussia stood for from German society. Bringing the throne back to a Hohenzollern would run completely contrary to this aim.

An independent Bavaria might be more inclined to bring back their monarchy, but even then it is a far stretch. The Allies weren't generally inclined to monarchism, especially the USA and the USSR. There is no example for them restoring any monarchy, that wasn't deposed before the war.

However, while I think about ways, monarchies were reintroduced you could have something similar to Spain: the Bundesrepublik's democracy doesn't work out, the Western Allies see a communist takeover of Germany likely, and support a coup d'etat that establishes a conservative military dictatorship, which after some time brings back the monarchy. But that is still pretty much complete monarcho-wanking.
 
How's this for an option:

In the run-up to World War II, it seems that anyone at all would be better than the Nazi's. Suppose a Royalist faction--part of the army,perhaps--wanted Hitler out, and quietly spoke with western powers. Gaurantees are excahnged, and the monarchists get some funds from the Jews, in exchange for an end to the anti-Jewist program. Get a monarchy before World War II--and now, there's a German faction that might well be seen as a worthwhile counterbalance to the USSR.

That would work. I think that even the West who hated Wilhelm would most certainly trust him more than Hitler.
 
There's a timeline I'm working on that involves a Hohenzollern restoration in the British Zone, but its roughly that same section of Germany as in OTL. The former French and American Zones eventually join it, despite American objections (the French have mixed feelings about it: on one hand, not to happy about Germany not staying split, on the other, they're pro-monarchy in TTL).

Mind you, its an ASB timeline where 'magic' (ritual use of psi powers, working with the Collective Unconscious) works, and said magic gets a boost when used to support an hereditary or semi-hereditary monarchy. I should probably stop procrastinating about posting it (I haven't made a lot of progress, due to trying to work out when the US will accept something rather unpalatable to them), though it'll be in the ASB forum, of course.

For the OP, if France is more pro-monarchy than in OTL, perhaps restoring the Bonapartes, Bourbons, or Orléans (due to, say, one of the pretenders managing to become a symbol Free France rallies around), they'd likely be willing to see a Hohenzollern restoration in the British Zone, though they'd likely want to restore another monarch or two in the French Zones.
 
There's a timeline I'm working on that involves a Hohenzollern restoration in the British Zone, but its roughly that same section of Germany as in OTL. The former French and American Zones eventually join it, despite American objections (the French have mixed feelings about it: on one hand, not to happy about Germany not staying split, on the other, they're pro-monarchy in TTL).

Mind you, its an ASB timeline where 'magic' (ritual use of psi powers, working with the Collective Unconscious) works, and said magic gets a boost when used to support an hereditary or semi-hereditary monarchy. I should probably stop procrastinating about posting it (I haven't made a lot of progress, due to trying to work out when the US will accept something rather unpalatable to them), though it'll be in the ASB forum, of course.

For the OP, if France is more pro-monarchy than in OTL, perhaps restoring the Bonapartes, Bourbons, or Orléans (due to, say, one of the pretenders managing to become a symbol Free France rallies around), they'd likely be willing to see a Hohenzollern restoration in the British Zone, though they'd likely want to restore another monarch or two in the French Zones.

I would still love to see that. Post the link when u are ready...
 
Bavarian Monarchy

I suspect the French would support an independent Bavaria, even with a monarch. After all, that's breaking up Germany into smaller pieces, and Paris has has uninvited guests 2 times in the past three wars--a broken up Germany is less of a threat.
 
I suspect the French would support an independent Bavaria, even with a monarch. After all, that's breaking up Germany into smaller pieces, and Paris has has uninvited guests 2 times in the past three wars--a broken up Germany is less of a threat.

Much as France would love that, it would never happen. Know why? 'Cause the States and Britain wanted the strongest Germany possible to face the Soviet threat. With a few squabbling broken up German nations, it will prove to be the undoing of any alliance the Anglo's can build. France would never get its way.
 
The earliest this could probably be considered in Germany is after reunification in 1989-90. West Germany never really had sufficient independence from the other western allies (also WW2 victors) to do this and it would have been out of the question in East Germany.

The question is, why would Germany want to do this?

As an American, I look at European constitutional/symbolic monarchies with a admiration for the historic traditions they represent, even though some of their current members seem silly. I would like to see some of the old royal houses return, including to Russia, Austria, Hungary, and Germany. A problem with the Hohenzollerns is that they are, after all, a Prussian house associated with German militarism and WW1. This is not an historical association that modern Germany (which no longer even has a "Prussia" among its member states I believe) seeks. I hadn't thought of this, but maybe a new German monarchy could be founded on one of the other noble houses, such as Bavaria or one of the even smaller ones.

But bottom line, where is the desire or need for this?
 
Post WW2 it could be the result of more forceful negotiations with the Russians, resulting in an immediate WWIII pushing them back beyond poland and eastern Europe. Of course this would have to be preceded by a French restoration to get the support the British would need for this.

Again this would piss the states off to no end.
 
A Wittelsbach restoration in Bavaria within the context of a federal (West) Germany would be possible if the British and French lobby the Americans really hard for it. Might a monarchical restoration happen in Hanover as well, it being in the British zone and all?
 
Another question: Would a monarchical federal state of Bavaria include the Bavarian Palatinate (minus whatever piece of it the French assign to the Saar)?
 
On Bruning's wikipedia page he is said to have pushed for a Hohenzollern restoration along 'British' (ie constitutional and limited) lines in order to prevent Hitler being elected as President after Hindenburg's death. Apparently he managed to gain the acquiescence of the main parties (NSDAP and Communists aside) but the plan fell apart upon Hindenburg's insistence that only Wilhelm II could be restored. However I have never come across reference to this plan before. Anyone know more?
 
A Wittelsbach restoration in Bavaria within the context of a federal (West) Germany would be possible if the British and French lobby the Americans really hard for it. Might a monarchical restoration happen in Hanover as well, it being in the British zone and all?

Another question: Would a monarchical federal state of Bavaria include the Bavarian Palatinate (minus whatever piece of it the French assign to the Saar)?

Anyone?...
 
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