WI - Republic of Israel after WW1?

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: After 1900' started by twistedirregular, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Tjakari Locusts and Fishbones

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    I'm saying a holocaust isn't exactly guaranteed with a point of divergence that early in the 20th century. How Germany handles the interwar period isn't set in stone and assuming so is bad history.
     
  2. bernardz Donor

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    The Nazis did not initially plan to kill the Jews, we call it a twisted path to Auschwitz. I would expect that Israel and Germany could make a deal for Germany to export its Jews in exchange for foreign currency, such a deal was done in the post ww2 era between Israel and Romania.

    The other issue is if the Jews had a state then killing Jews is a much riskier proposition. The Nazis may not do it.
     
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  3. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back Kicked

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    They pick Archduke Otto of Austria.

    He already had a solid claim for being King of Jerusalem, and came from a line used to quarreling groups of different Religions who wanted each other dead in the past. The Habsburgs were seen as being just to Jews in the old Empire.
     
  4. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    Do we even know the Nazis would still take power? If there's more movement of Jews to Israel in the 1920s--especially the more visible orthodox communities--might it be harder for the antisemetic right of German politics to build a platform luring away working-class voters from the left resulting in either the SPD remaining or--more likely as eventually everyone would get tired of the SPD--the KPD taking power?
     
  5. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    Riiight. The Kingdom of Jerusalem that had been established by Christians during the Crusades. Who massacred the Jews of the region en masse.

    Who furthermore was a defeated monarch who the British wanted no business dealing with. The republicans aren't going to be terribly happy with any monarch, and the orthodox are going to be pissed if the kingdom tries to derive legitimacy from crusader Jerusalem.
     
  6. marathag Well-Known Member with a target on his back Kicked

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    No kingdom would be seen as legitimate, being filled with Jews, Muslims and Christians in the early '20s

    You are looking for a King had treated Jews well recently, not a thousand years earlier

    That pretty much leaves the Habsburg Line. Jews in the Empire thought well of Franz Josef's Religious policies towards them. Not many European Royal Houses could claim the same.
    By supporting the Balfour Declaration, tht already says that Arab input would be limited.
     
  7. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    So why are the British supporting a Hapsburg though?

    Also, could you see an "Israeli Free State" develop along lines similar to Eire, with a nominal head of state in George Windsor but with de facto independence on a level beyond that of a Commonwealth realm?
     
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  8. twistedirregular Negus Negast

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    Alright, let's replace Kingdom with Republic. What would happen then?
     
  9. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    Everyone loves it except the ultra-Orthodox. Much like OTL at that point.

    The Arabs are just as pissed.

    The question then becomes one of whether 1) there is right of return (probably) 2) whether the Republic can, possibly with British help, supress the Arab population (possibly leading to ethnic cleansing much greater than OTL Nakba) and 3) whether enough Jews get out of Europe to escape the Holocaust assuming it isn't butterflied by an unlikely though not impossible chain of events.

    Also, there's the minor issue of most of the Jews in Israel (the Labor Zionist) being socialist in an era when international socialism is entering the world stage. What happens if Israel elects a hard-left, pro-Soviet government around 1920? The British might quietly intervene and recolonise the region, and further would be much more reluctant to decolonise down the road. Massive butterflies ensue...
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  10. twistedirregular Negus Negast

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    What effects could this have internationally if London decides to recolonize the region?
     
  11. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    The Brits give it to an Arab state down the road. Generally Britain and by extension the West end up more pro-Arab, supporting semi-subordinate monarchs like the Hashemids. Likely everything between the Sinai and the Zagros becomes a greater Arabia under a British "Protectorate" (I think at this point its become an implicit POD that the French aren't sweating Sykes-Picot for whatever reason, probably in exchange for a free hand in the Rhineland).

    Zionism becomes an explicitly socialist movement most likely; I wouldn't be surprised if the Soviets establish a Jewish Autonomous Oblast in the Crimea
    as was proposed IOTL
    rather than in some inhospitable corner of Siberia and generally give it active patronage and religious autonomy (emphasizing Judaism's deliberative nature to avoid the "Opioid of the Masses" critique). Trotsky of course is the obvious choice for Lenin to appoint as at least nominal head, this has monumental butterflies in either somehow enabling Trotsky to survive longer (most likely by deflating Stalin's base as Commissar of Nationalities) or by making Zionism implicitly Trotskyist in the eyes of Stalin.

    Assuming the Holocaust happens ITTL international outrage will be such that a Jewish State ends up established somewhere; where is another issue. It would be interesting to see Trotsky surviving his assassination attempt and somehow leading international cries among the Western workers' movements to support a Jewish State in the Palestine. Imagine what would happen if he persuaded Attlee to give up the entire Palestine, managed to use !Socialism to create a sense of unity among the Jews and Arabs (particularly if Greater Arabia has meant that the Palestinian Arabs are much more opposed to Pan-Arabism ITTL, seeing as it's actually sort of been tried and likely hasn't worked out too well for them). Imagine if he then joins Tito, Nasser, and Nehru in creating something in between a NAM and Fourth International and collectively having much more influence in the cold war, particularly if Israel can achieve much greater moral prestige than IOTL. For added benefit Mossadegh actively works with the Israeli Republic and sets a precedent of anti-Shah governments supporting Israel...

    That all sounds rather close to ASB though :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
  12. JSilvy Well-Known Member

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    Tbh one thing I always thought would be cool was a dual monarchy with the Ethiopians with the Davidic kings and all, although considering how he’s a Christian there may be some conflict there. An earlier Israel is definitely possible, and the Arab-Israeli conflict can be either avoided or at least dialed back if Sykes-Picot is eliminated and Faisal-Weizmann actually goes through, although you may want to also add in more Jewish immigration, and perhaps somehow decrease the rate at which the Arab population grows. The latter of which isn’t actually that hard, considering that the Arab population in Palestine was initially ~300,000 and grew to well over 1,000,000 by 1948.
     
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  13. twistedirregular Negus Negast

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    Could you expand on this idea?
     
  14. Lalli Well-Known Member

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    Republic of Israel just would piss Arabs. If WW2 still occurs in Europe wouldn't be Israeli troops when them would have fight for Israel in their own soil. Probably Israel would be occupied by Arab rebels and Allies have liberate the country. This probably would create even worse relationships between Jews and Arabs. Not nice world.
     
  15. JSilvy Well-Known Member

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    Well to start I actually think I may have mentioned this on your Ethiopian TL thread, but since the Solomonic dynasty rules Ethiopia, that means Ethiopia is ruled by the same dynasty as ancient Israel and Judah, granting them some legitimacy as candidates to the throne of Israel. But since the Emperor of Ethiopia is Christian and not Jewish, it may not be accepted by many Jews.
     
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  16. Arcavius Arms and the Man I Sing

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    While that's probably most likely I don't think it would be impossible for a Palestinian Republic (as it would most likely be called in 1919) to by necessity preserve the Millet system. Thus the Arabs in Palestine aren't terribly pissed off--they keep most of their privileges overall--and if Pan-Arabism does well elsewhere there might be more voluntary Arab migration out of the Palestine. Not to mention of course the Socialism Question.

    Edit: As for the Solomonic Kingdom idea 1) is there anyone in a position to convert w/o threatening the line of succession and 2) does there end up being some racism in terms of an African king? IOTL there is unfortunately bias against the Ethiopian Jewish community in Israel.

    What happens if, somehow, Haile Selassie converts to Judaism but then--surprise! ends up as King of Ethiopia probably with a Christian regent due to some sudden change in the line of succession. Could Ras Tafari be embraced as Messiah by at least some subsets of the Jewish community?
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018
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  17. David T Well-Known Member

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    Well, in 1920 the British repowered that there were only 76,000 Jews in Palestine out of a population of 700,000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)#British_Mandate_era Any Jewish-majority state at that time would have to be a very small state.
     
  18. twistedirregular Negus Negast

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    I never mentioned that no one in the Ethiopian Royal Family hasn't secretly converted to Judaism, now did I? :p
     
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  19. twistedirregular Negus Negast

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    Haile Selassie was a devout Orthodox Christian - I very much doubt the plausibility of his converting to Judaism and that would only give his rivals an excuse to overthrow him, with the backing of the Orthodox Church and God knows how many Christians from the Ethiopian peasantry. You could see someone from the Beta Israeli community in northwestern Ethiopia be promoted to nobility and they could become a potential candidate for an Israeli Monarch but I'm not completely sure about this.

    EDIT: If Ethiopia joins the Entente in WW1, you could see the formation of an Ethiopian Jewish Legion that fights alongside British forces and this could be added to the scenario of a Beta Israeli noble who commands the EJL in the Sinai-Palestinian Campaign.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2018
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  20. Anarch King of Dipsodes Overlord of All Thirst

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    Such an action would violate the Balfour Declaration, which stated that

    nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine...
     
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