WI: Regular (American) 5-star generals?

IOTL, the 5-star general rank in the US has generally been considered primarily ceremonial and for distinguished wartime leadership. There was a push by some Air Force officers to make Curtis LeMay (commander of SAC) a 5-star general in the '50s, but it was never seriously considered. How might this be changed? In other words, how might the 5-star rank be integrated into the standard US rank structure, say as the rank of a Chief of Staff or possibly the commander of a combat command such as CINCPAC or the commander of SAC?
 
I don’t see it happening short of WW3, it’d take some very extreme circumstances for that rank to used in anything but a ceremonial way.
 
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The 5-star rank was created largely to have American commanders on equal standing with British Field Marshals. Even if the rank was kept, I think it would be kept to only one in the army/navy/air force. The question from that is who would qualified to have that position.
 
The 5-star rank was created largely to have American commanders on equal standing with British Field Marshals. Even if the rank was kept, I think it would be kept to only one in the army/navy/air force. The question from that is who would qualified to have that position.

Well, the obvious answer to that is the Chiefs of Staff. This means that there will generally be two services that have two five-star generals, as the Vice Chair and Chair are not Chiefs of Staff of their respective services but are superior to the Chiefs of Staff of the services.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
IOTL, the 5-star general rank in the US has generally been considered primarily ceremonial and for distinguished wartime leadership. There was a push by some Air Force officers to make Curtis LeMay (commander of SAC) a 5-star general in the '50s, but it was never seriously considered. How might this be changed? In other words, how might the 5-star rank be integrated into the standard US rank structure, say as the rank of a Chief of Staff or possibly the commander of a combat command such as CINCPAC or the commander of SAC?
It is something that could come back. One could argue that with the exception of the Marine Corps --it being part of the Department of the Navy-- the Joint Chiefs could possibly hold that rank.

During WWII, there were 13 million men and women in uniform. Believe it or not, with the Army under 1 million (counting National Guard and Reserves), and the other services cut back in a like manner, EVEN WITH COMPUTERIZED DATA BASES, there are more flag officers than we had in WWII.

I saw reports that with 2,400 men in Somolia during operation Restore Hope, there were 12 flag officers in theater. 2,400 men is an understrength command for a full Colonel. Makes me wonder what they had Captains and Lieutenants doing, Corporal of the guard work?

Back to the OP though. Due to the nature of the position, a Five Star Flag Officer never retires. The only exception was Eisenhower. Even then, his rank was restored by Congress after his Presidency. MacArthur was re-activated by Kennedy in 1962 to mediate a dispute. That is a lot of money to pay for a men too old to have active commands.

Really, what was somebody like Omar Bradley going to do in his 80's? The man was 88 years old, and still drawing a full Five Star General's pay when he died back in 1981.

Really, right now most army commands exist only on paper. With 10 Active Divisions, it isn't a command fit for a Five Star General.
 
Back to the OP though. Due to the nature of the position, a Five Star Flag Officer never retires. The only exception was Eisenhower. Even then, his rank was restored by Congress after his Presidency. MacArthur was re-activated by Kennedy in 1962 to mediate a dispute. That is a lot of money to pay for a men too old to have active commands.
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I think that's more of an effect of the position I was challenging at the beginning, though, that it's a ceremonial honor not a real rank. If it's a ceremonial honor, then obviously you don't take it away or just give a pension, anymore than you would take away someone's Medal of Honor when they got a discharge. If it's just a regular rank, though high up, then you treat it the same way you treat any other flag officer rank.

Really, right now most army commands exist only on paper. With 10 Active Divisions, it isn't a command fit for a Five Star General.

Now, this is a more substantive consideration, and one that particularly applies nowadays. However, I was considering some way to get the rank into service immediately after WWII or during the '50s, when of course the US had a larger military.
 
It is something that could come back. One could argue that with the exception of the Marine Corps --it being part of the Department of the Navy-- the Joint Chiefs could possibly hold that rank.

During WWII, there were 13 million men and women in uniform. Believe it or not, with the Army under 1 million (counting National Guard and Reserves), and the other services cut back in a like manner, EVEN WITH COMPUTERIZED DATA BASES, there are more flag officers than we had in WWII.

I saw reports that with 2,400 men in Somolia during operation Restore Hope, there were 12 flag officers in theater. 2,400 men is an understrength command for a full Colonel. Makes me wonder what they had Captains and Lieutenants doing, Corporal of the guard work?

Back to the OP though. Due to the nature of the position, a Five Star Flag Officer never retires. The only exception was Eisenhower. Even then, his rank was restored by Congress after his Presidency. MacArthur was re-activated by Kennedy in 1962 to mediate a dispute. That is a lot of money to pay for a men too old to have active commands.

Really, what was somebody like Omar Bradley going to do in his 80's? The man was 88 years old, and still drawing a full Five Star General's pay when he died back in 1981.

Really, right now most army commands exist only on paper. With 10 Active Divisions, it isn't a command fit for a Five Star General.



One thing to rember is a 5 star General of the Army makes less then a 3 star General .

And something to rember is there is active ranks and Res Ranks , General Patton actually out ranked Omar Bradley in Active rank as a Lt General But General Bradley recived the Res Rank of General of the Armies .
 

pnyckqx

Banned
One thing to rember is a 5 star General of the Army makes less then a 3 star General .

And something to rember is there is active ranks and Res Ranks , General Patton actually out ranked Omar Bradley in Active rank as a Lt General But General Bradley recived the Res Rank of General of the Armies .
Having examined the Congressional acts, I have to concede the pay issue, unless that has been changed by subsequent acts. I have no knowledge of any such acts.

However, in the case of Omar Bradley, his Four Star rank was in the Regular Army, not the Army of the United States as of 1949. His promotion to General of the Army was as a member of the Regular Army.
Also, according to the Congressional Act, a Five Star Flag officer receives active duty pay, not retirement pay. He is not considered as retired. And if I am reading Public Law 333 Section 2 correctly, Bradley received the same pay as an Active Four Star, as did Marshall, MacArthur, Eisenhower, Arnold, Nimitz, King, Leahy, and later on, Halsey. They received that pay until their death.

In the era before WWII, the Army Chief of Staff was the only Four Star Flag officer in the army. It was a temporary grade. I know that MacArthur reverted to Major General when his term as Chief of Staff had expired in the 1930's.
He then retired from the Army and became the Field Marshal of the Philippine Army. He was re-activated and restored to his Regular army rank, and his subsequent promotions were Regular Army.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Now, this is a more substantive consideration, and one that particularly applies nowadays. However, I was considering some way to get the rank into service immediately after WWII or during the '50s, when of course the US had a larger military.
Really, what is needed at present is to at least double --triple would be better-- the size of the armed forces. One thing that has been determined is that there is no substitute for boots on the ground. If we're going to continue with our present political course in this country (not taking a public stand on that issue, I'm merely offering a hypothetical), then it is time to concede that the "Peace Dividend" was a big lie.

Our military is in 135 countries at last count. The skies and oceans haven't gotten any smaller, but our fleet and air forces have.

All the present force structure does is kill men and machinery at a much faster rate. That is especially true since we've had combat troops in Afghanistan for nine years, and in Iraq for seven years.

I've seen cases of some army guys on their sixth combat deployment. My son's platoon sergeant is about to go back for his fifth.
 
In the era before WWII, the Army Chief of Staff was the only Four Star Flag officer in the army. It was a temporary grade. I know that MacArthur reverted to Major General when his term as Chief of Staff had expired in the 1930's. He then retired from the Army and became the Field Marshal of the Philippine Army. He was re-activated and restored to his Regular army rank, and his subsequent promotions were Regular Army.

Pretty much the same way in the pre-WW2 Navy as well. There, the highest permanent rank was Rear Admiral, and the higer ranks were only temporary, coming with the assignment to specified positions, such as CNO, fleet command (full admirals), or a major type command- such as the carrier force or the battle line (vice admirals), and upon conclusion of the assignment, a flag oficer would revert to being a Rear Admiral unless assigned to another posting that carried higher rank with it.
 

Blair152

Banned
IOTL, the 5-star general rank in the US has generally been considered primarily ceremonial and for distinguished wartime leadership. There was a push by some Air Force officers to make Curtis LeMay (commander of SAC) a 5-star general in the '50s, but it was never seriously considered. How might this be changed? In other words, how might the 5-star rank be integrated into the standard US rank structure, say as the rank of a Chief of Staff or possibly the commander of a combat command such as CINCPAC or the commander of SAC?
Eisenhower, Arnold, Patton, Nimitz, Leahy, and King, were all either promoted to the rank of General of the Army, or Fleet Admiral. Did I forget someone? Yes, I did. Omar Bradley, who was the last surviving General of the Army.
 

Typo

Banned
Really, what is needed at present is to at least double --triple would be better-- the size of the armed forces. One thing that has been determined is that there is no substitute for boots on the ground. If we're going to continue with our present political course in this country (not taking a public stand on that issue, I'm merely offering a hypothetical), then it is time to concede that the &quot:winkytongue:eace Dividend" was a big lie.

Our military is in 135 countries at last count. The skies and oceans haven't gotten any smaller, but our fleet and air forces have.

All the present force structure does is kill men and machinery at a much faster rate. That is especially true since we've had combat troops in Afghanistan for nine years, and in Iraq for seven years.

I've seen cases of some army guys on their sixth combat deployment. My son's platoon sergeant is about to go back for his fifth.

And here comes the derail this thread into blatant militarism train
 

pnyckqx

Banned
And here comes the derail this thread into blatant militarism train
No intentions of doing so, and political views were avoided.

The comment is simply an IF-THEN observation. Whether or not the IF part is desirable or proper I leave to the observer to draw his own conclusions.

I have no further comments on that issue.
 

pnyckqx

Banned
Eisenhower, Arnold, Patton, Nimitz, Leahy, and King, were all either promoted to the rank of General of the Army, or Fleet Admiral. Did I forget someone? Yes, I did. Omar Bradley, who was the last surviving General of the Army.
William Halsey.
 
Eisenhower, Arnold, Patton, Nimitz, Leahy, and King, were all either promoted to the rank of General of the Army, or Fleet Admiral. Did I forget someone? Yes, I did. Omar Bradley, who was the last surviving General of the Army.

Pershing (sort of) - Sept 3, 1919 [1]

Leahy - Dec 15, 1944
Marshall - Dec 16, 1944
King - Dec 17, 1944
MacArthur - Dec 18, 1944
Nimitz - Dec 19, 1944
Eisenhower - Dec 20, 1944
Arnold - Dec 21, 1944
Halsey - Dec 21, 1945
Bradley - Sept 22, 1950

So, no Patton.

[1] Pershing was alive in Dec of 1944 and his rank of General of the Armies was considered senior to the Fleet Admiral and General of the Army ranks conferred then. Theoretically, George Washington outranks Pershing after the posthumous promotions (General of the Armies of the United States) and proclamations of 1976.
 
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