WI: Regia Marina attack on New York in 1942

The Italians didn't exactly have the best of records during WWII (Greece threw them back). I imagine their attack would fail with their fleet destroyed.
 
The Italians didn't exactly have the best of records during WWII (Greece threw them back). I imagine their attack would fail with their fleet destroyed.
Maybe you should have read the other posts...;)

No one is talking about a conventional attack. The italian surface fleet could not pass Gibraltar without being undetedted (and bombed at will, too). This would have been clearly an ASB. Mind you, in any alternate universe in which the Regia Marina could do that, you should assume a stellar record for the italian army...

What we were discussing about was a sneak attack made by a submarine through manned torpedos, like the one to Alexandria.
 
So what we need is a fleet of dirigibles floating the entire Regia Marina battle line out past Gibralter on a moonless night, thereby also greatly extending the fuel/range of the fleet. Returning to the water somewhere northwest of the Azores...
 
The British would never retreat from Gibraltar pending Spain joining the Axis.

Let's have Fascist Spain win the SCW in a matter of a few months (I'm not sure how... maybe only the fascists get volunteers and aid while the commies/anarchists get little substantial help), leaving most of the Spanish infrastructure intact, allowing money for some military development and investment in military hardware from the other fascist countries. So, Spain joins the Axis and the British position at Gibraltar becomes untenable.
 
Why does the RN need to exit the Gibraltar straights when the frogmen and the necessary equipment (i.e. the manned torpedoes) can be hauled by train to any German-controlled port in France or Norway and board a U-boot?
 
Why does the RN need to exit the Gibraltar straights when the frogmen and the necessary equipment (i.e. the manned torpedoes) can be hauled by train to any German-controlled port in France or Norway and board a U-boot?

Exactly. I completely agree.
 

Dure

Banned
Just a helpful question. How big would an airship have to be to carry a 50,000 ton battle ship from Naples to New York?
 
Just a helpful question. How big would an airship have to be to carry a 50,000 ton battle ship from Naples to New York?

Dude, we've said the attack relied on subs. Which were demonstratably capable of entering the Atlantic. :rolleyes:
 

Hyperion

Banned
So they send a submarine or two, sink or damage a few transports or smaller warships, cause a few dozen or maybe a couple hundred or so casualties, depending on what exactly happens, but overall its a case of more flash that substance.

Even though a small raid like this wouldn't do anything significant to set back the US or allies in general, could this have political ramifications?

Maybe seeing Italy do something like this, gets a lot of people mad, and the US is more agreeable to invading mainland Italy come 1943.
 
Why does the RN need to exit the Gibraltar straights when the frogmen and the necessary equipment (i.e. the manned torpedoes) can be hauled by train to any German-controlled port in France or Norway and board a U-boot?

That's a good point, but I'd still love to see an epic TL in which Fascist Spain enters WWII and takes control of Gibraltar.

Rule of cool? :cool:
 
I agree with the majority of posters that the attack would probably not be worth the effort.
On the other hand, what happens to Gibraltar is not very relevant in this context. Italian submarines operated in the Atlantic and German submarines operated in the Mediterranean, without either being attacked from Gibraltar.
On top of that, the article to which BlackWave had provided a link states that the Italian submarine Leonardo da Vinci was already at Bordeaux to be fitted out with the midget submarines for the attack on New York. Bordeaux is on the Bay of Biscay, which is part of the Atlantic, which means that the Leonardo da Vinci had already passed Gibraltar!
http://www.regiamarina.net/xa_mas/ny/ny_us.htm

So instead of trying to pass Gibralter, which was extremely dangerous, the sub has to get across the Sea of Biscay, which is at least the second most dangerous place for an Axis submarine.

Most of the Axis' subs which were sunk were lost in the Sea of Biscay.
Subs of those days still had to do most of their trip on the surface and with the RAF's cover over the Sea of Biscay didn't exactly make it a walk in the park.
To make matters worse, you'd have to do so in a big submarine (probably not the fastest diving sub around) but with several minisubs attached to the outside of your sub. And that's before you cross the Atlantic...

Probably didn't happen OTL because the chance of success were slim and the chance of losing the sub 99%. The Italians weren't exactly crazy. There are about a gazillion Allied ports just as important or which will provide just as significant a moral boost when attacked, which aren't thousands of miles away.
 
Just some macaroni wet dreams, that plan ever being reality is a pure ASB.

Macaronis' wet dreams sank two battkleships in Alexandria, under His Brish Majesty's nose, I have to remember. When they managed to overcome the mix of incompetence and corruption which was typical of Fascism, even the Italians could rise up to amazing feats of arms.
 
So instead of trying to pass Gibralter, which was extremely dangerous, the sub has to get across the Sea of Biscay, which is at least the second most dangerous place for an Axis submarine.

Most of the Axis' subs which were sunk were lost in the Sea of Biscay.
Subs of those days still had to do most of their trip on the surface and with the RAF's cover over the Sea of Biscay didn't exactly make it a walk in the park.
To make matters worse, you'd have to do so in a big submarine (probably not the fastest diving sub around) but with several minisubs attached to the outside of your sub. And that's before you cross the Atlantic...

Probably didn't happen OTL because the chance of success were slim and the chance of losing the sub 99%. The Italians weren't exactly crazy. There are about a gazillion Allied ports just as important or which will provide just as significant a moral boost when attacked, which aren't thousands of miles away.
I did not say it was easy, or a recommendable strategy from the Axis point of view, I just wanted to emphasize that the whole discussion about Gibraltar was superfluous because the submarine in question was already in the Atlantic. Of course what you say about the Bay of Biscay is perfectly true, but only from circa 1943 onwards. If the attack is made earlier, it just might (might!) succeed. But then again, I have already questioned, in my earlier post, whether it would be worthwhile.
 

Dure

Banned
Dude, we've said the attack relied on subs. Which were demonstratably capable of entering the Atlantic.

Dude, you are wrong Dude, some of you suggested subs, some of you suggested a fleet. I like the idea of airship borne battleships, they are cool Dude. The idea of airship borne subs, Dude it is so Gerry Anderson its almost been done like Dude, no fun in that.
 
Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare
Just some macaroni wet dreams, that plan ever being reality is a pure ASB.
Stop the racist slur!
Racist?
Why?
Im Italian and i like macaroni. :rolleyes:
About the attack on New York in Italy is a well know story.
We had several plans about this,for exemple:
http://books.google.it/books?id=hrs...alian Planned Attack of the new york&f=false
But seriously the real problem with these plans,the real risk was: "And if the attack work?
In Italy many in the Establishment saw to the United States with hope for a better treatment,and remember that the fascists fanatics were very few (between the fascists too )!
The American peoples very difficulty would forgive an direct attack on the US soil.
I dont' think that the attack would the green light.
Not in 1942-43.
 
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CalBear

Moderator
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Monthly Donor
New York is a LONG way to go to try a minor raid by some frogmen.

It might be symbolic, even if successful, but beyond that?

The USN had also improved in the ASW and patrol game by 12-1-1942, and New York was not the nice soft target it had been in January.
 

Bearcat

Banned
New York is a LONG way to go to try a minor raid by some frogmen.

It might be symbolic, even if successful, but beyond that?

The USN had also improved in the ASW and patrol game by 12-1-1942, and New York was not the nice soft target it had been in January.

I can't imagine the Italians successfully getting through the RN, then the USN, pulling this off, and getting back home. Its an invitation to utter disaster.
 
Lets think about italy sending Subs to the indian ocean in 1942-1943 if they could do that why could they not get to the East coast of the US .

Lets say they sent 20 subs out and 15 made it to the east coast and they attacked 8 or 9 ports this would shake up the US Navy and insetead of lading craft being give 1st prority to the Diesel's The DE's got them the landings would be set back almost a year for want of Landing craft . And the Cost to the italians would be less then a bombing raid on a German city by the British .
 
If you look at Italy's losses vs Britain's losses in the Medeterrian the Megia Marina gave as good as it got. The big glaring weakness it had was the lack of a naval air arm.
 
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