WI: Regia Marina attack on New York in 1942

Apparently, the Italian navy was planning an attack into New York, originally for December 1942. WI a serious attempt to implement this plan was made, or that anything needed for it to be on the table occured, and what consequences could it have made it if had gone ahead for whatever reason?

See here: http://www.regiamarina.net/xa_mas/ny/ny_us.htm
 
How would they have made it out of the Mediterranean, let alone to the Eastern seaboard of the United States with the British controlling both the Isthmus of Suez and the Strait of Gibraltar?
 
How would they have made it out of the Mediterranean, let alone to the Eastern seaboard of the United States with the British controlling both the Isthmus of Suez and the Strait of Gibraltar?

Like I said, assume that for whatever reason that they can theoretically try to pull this off, for the sake of argument.
 
How would they have made it out of the Mediterranean, let alone to the Eastern seaboard of the United States with the British controlling both the Isthmus of Suez and the Strait of Gibraltar?

If I remember correctly (but I'm away from my books, so I can't really say for sure) they were planning to use maiali (slow manned torpedos) rather than a conventional attack.
The attack would have been similar to the one to Alexandria: an italian submarine would have released a couple of maiali with their incursors, who would have approached the harbour and mined their targets.
The possibility of pulling off such attack in an unknown port (I don't know if the Regia Marina got scannings of New York port, though) and so far from ityalian bases are really low, but not completely impossible.
Had they succeeded, it would have been a huge propagandistic blow to the Allies, but nothing more. In the best of the cases, USA and UK would have poured a lot of resources to proof their harbours against these kinds of attacks.
 
Did the Italians have any spies in the USA? The Germans had a few...
Unless, of course, the Mafia rolled them up...

I'm sure there were a few. Certainly there were Fascist sympathizers in NYC, conceivably even working on the shore and capable of getting photos and nav. charts. Getting these back to Italy will be very difficult, but with subs not insurmountable.

But in the end Cornelius was right on the money: good propaganda coup, some extra spending on ports, but no major effect on the short or long term outcome.
 
Did the Italians have any spies in the USA? The Germans had a few...
Unless, of course, the Mafia rolled them up...

That gave me an idea for a mob movie scene. WWII mafia are talking to a guy just arrived from the old country, they find out he's a Fascist spy and he gets disposed of a la end of the Godfather before the FBI even knows there's a spy in the coutry.
"Viva IL Duce!" "Hey this basterds a fascist!" Que Piano wire and Louisville Sluggar.
 
Like I said, assume that for whatever reason that they can theoretically try to pull this off, for the sake of argument.

Umm... Isn't that the most obvious warning of an ASB?


Hitler lands on the Moon in 1944
Like I said, assume that for whatever reason that they can theoretically try to pull this off, for the sake of argument.


You want an ASB discussion, take it to ASB. You want a 'after 1900' discussion, be prepared to defend its plausibility/ provide some clue how it might happen. Heck, you want a DECENT discussion in ASB, provide some clue how it might happen.
 
Apparently, the Italian navy was planning an attack into New York, originally for December 1942. WI a serious attempt to implement this plan was made, or that anything needed for it to be on the table occured, and what consequences could it have made it if had gone ahead for whatever reason?

See here: http://www.regiamarina.net/xa_mas/ny/ny_us.htm
I do not quite see the point of navigating up the Hudson when you can sink a lot of ships off the US East coast, which is what the Germans did historically in 1942. I do not see this attack as totally impossible, if I remember correctly an Italian filmed the brightly lit New York skyline from a submarine in 1942, but, once again I still can't see the point, though you have certainly posted an interesting link.

How would they have made it out of the Mediterranean, let alone to the Eastern seaboard of the United States with the British controlling both the Isthmus of Suez and the Strait of Gibraltar?
Getting past Gibraltar and out of the Mediterranean was no problem for Italian submarines in WW II. Doenitz wanted to use Italian submarines as scouts for the U-Boats in the Atlantic and a number of Italian subs were indeed used in that role, though only with limited success. At a later date, in 1943, Doenitz used submarines captured from the Italians for transporting torpedoes for German U-Boats operating in the Indian ocean from Japanese-held bases. They had to get past Gibraltar before they could get into the Indian Ocean.
 
But let's get coldboolded here... juts how important was NY harbor to the war, even if the attack was a complete success? There are literally dozens of harbor cities in the US atlantic coasts, including Norfolk itself, and it's not as if New York had many war effort industries -and I doubt even those were on the harbor.
 
Umm... Isn't that the most obvious warning of an ASB?


Hitler lands on the Moon in 1944
Like I said, assume that for whatever reason that they can theoretically try to pull this off, for the sake of argument.


You want an ASB discussion, take it to ASB. You want a 'after 1900' discussion, be prepared to defend its plausibility/ provide some clue how it might happen. Heck, you want a DECENT discussion in ASB, provide some clue how it might happen.

Well, I don't think it's ASB, just rather improbable. It'd be really difficult and require a lot of luck to slip past Gibraltar (might slip through the north sea w/ a U-boot, though) and more luck to avoid Atlantic patrols (German U-boots pulled it off pretty regularly), but the Italians did have possibly the world's best frogmen at that time and could cause some minor havoc if they could get there. I think they could have pulled it off, but again, why risk the personnel and resources over what would basically be a nuisance hit?
 
Umm... Isn't that the most obvious warning of an ASB?


Hitler lands on the Moon in 1944
Like I said, assume that for whatever reason that they can theoretically try to pull this off, for the sake of argument.


You want an ASB discussion, take it to ASB. You want a 'after 1900' discussion, be prepared to defend its plausibility/ provide some clue how it might happen. Heck, you want a DECENT discussion in ASB, provide some clue how it might happen.

As others haven't said, this attack isn't that inconcievable. Difficult and with a small chance of any real success, sure, but it's still within the realms of reality to an extent.
 
Did the Italians have any spies in the USA? The Germans had a few...
Unless, of course, the Mafia rolled them up...


The Mafia was firmly in allied camp since the fascist regime used drachonian metods against organized crime in Sicily in the '30 and the mob wanted revenge
 
It's very unlikely these things would make it out of the Mediterrenean, they would need to be transported to France beforehand. Aftwerwards it's hard to see how they could reach New York unopposed an even if it does the damage it causes will be minimal and they likely won't escape. It will be a propaganda coup but all in all a loss for the Axis, they've lost two submarines just to dmage some shipping.

Maybe in response the Allies will bomb an Italian port to smithereens :rolleyes:
 
It's very unlikely these things would make it out of the Mediterrenean, they would need to be transported to France beforehand. Aftwerwards it's hard to see how they could reach New York unopposed an even if it does the damage it causes will be minimal and they likely won't escape. It will be a propaganda coup but all in all a loss for the Axis, they've lost two submarines just to dmage some shipping.

Maybe in response the Allies will bomb an Italian port to smithereens :rolleyes:

Perhaps a POD could be the British retreating from Gibraltor, for whatever reason? And U-boats did manage to swim right up to the East coast, so it's not inconcievable.
 
Perhaps a POD could be the British retreating from Gibraltor, for whatever reason? And U-boats did manage to swim right up to the East coast, so it's not inconcievable.

The British would never retreat from Gibraltar pending Spain joining the Axis. And by December 1942 the 2nd happy time had ended making very dangerous for U-Boats to come close to an American port let alone sail into it.

And it's not inconcievable, as I said it would just need to be transported but it's pretty implausible.
 
Perhaps a POD could be the British retreating from Gibraltor, for whatever reason? And U-boats did manage to swim right up to the East coast, so it's not inconcievable.

The British would never retreat from Gibraltar pending Spain joining the Axis. And by December 1942 the 2nd happy time had ended making very dangerous for U-Boats to come close to an American port let alone sail into it.

And it's not inconcievable, as I said it would just need to be transported but it's pretty implausible.
I agree with the majority of posters that the attack would probably not be worth the effort.
On the other hand, what happens to Gibraltar is not very relevant in this context. Italian submarines operated in the Atlantic and German submarines operated in the Mediterranean, without either being attacked from Gibraltar.
On top of that, the article to which BlackWave had provided a link states that the Italian submarine Leonardo da Vinci was already at Bordeaux to be fitted out with the midget submarines for the attack on New York. Bordeaux is on the Bay of Biscay, which is part of the Atlantic, which means that the Leonardo da Vinci had already passed Gibraltar!
http://www.regiamarina.net/xa_mas/ny/ny_us.htm
 
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I agree with the majority of posters that the attack would probably not be worth the effort.

Well, it depends on your point of view.

This attack, if successful, would have been a great propagandistic coup for the Axis, but, of course, you don't win wars with propaganda only. The real effect on the war would have been negligible. At very best, like I wrote, the americans could panic and devolve resources to defend their harbours against the slow torpedos (which is what happened OTL in the mediterrean with the british).

On the other hand, the Axis regimes thrived on propaganda and this kind of show-off attacks were right in their alley. For them could have been a worthwile effort.

As for the whole thing being ASB, I disagree. Unlikey, really difficult to pull off, but not impossible as would be a sealion operation.

Just some macaroni wet dreams, that plan ever being reality is a pure ASB.

Ah, Yourworstnightmare, always so charming... I don't know what I would do without your witty and insightful comments :rolleyes:.
 
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