WI: RAAF F - 104 Starfighters

[La Rouge Beret]

The Royal Australian Air Force considered the F - 104 Starfighter as a replacement for the Sabre, but the bid fell over at the last hurdle and the RAAF got the Mirage III O.

First question how would the RAAF have fared with the F - 104 in service, my expectation is that between the climate and the fast jet experience within the RAAF we would see a much lower attrition rate than other Air Forces.

The Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation extensively modified the Sabre for Australian service and if this tendency to refine were to continue how would the Australian Starfighter differ from their contemporaries?

See picture below for inspiration taken from WI modellers.

 

[chrislondon]

The Royal Australian Air Force considered the F - 104 Starfighter as a replacement for the Sabre, but the bid fell over at the last hurdle and the RAAF got the Mirage IIIQUOTE]

I would have thought the F104 too short legged for the RAAF, but the the MIII is not much better. They really need something more like the F4

 

[riggerrob]

Compare the range of an F-104 versus a Mirage.
Internal fuel range?
Range with lots of external tanks?

 

[Mumbles]

The Royal Australian Air Force considered the F - 104 Starfighter as a replacement for the Sabre, but the bid fell over at the last hurdle and the RAAF got the Mirage IIIQUOTE]

I would have thought the F104 too short legged for the RAAF, but the the MIII is not much better. They really need something more like the F4

They had F-4's briefly, but strictly in an attack role as an interim while problems with the F-111 delivery were sorted out. Once the F-111's arrived some in the RAAF were quite keen to keep the F-4's as well.

 

[Zheng He]

The Royal Australian Air Force considered the F - 104 Starfighter as a replacement for the Sabre, but the bid fell over at the last hurdle and the RAAF got the Mirage IIIQUOTE]

I would have thought the F104 too short legged for the RAAF, but the the MIII is not much better. They really need something more like the F4

They did lease some F-4s for awhile as a gap filler until the F-111Cs came on line:

http://www.airforce.gov.au/raafmuseum/exhibitions/tech_hang/phantom.htm

 

[Mumbles]

See picture below for inspiration taken from WI modellers.

Is it weird that I can tell by looking that's probably the (terrible) Academy kit?
Good looking build though.

 

[Mumbles]

First question how would the RAAF have fared with the F - 104 in service, my expectation is that between the climate and the fast jet experience within the RAAF we would see a much lower attrition rate than other Air Forces.

The Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation extensively modified the Sabre for Australian service and if this tendency to refine were to continue how would the Australian Starfighter differ from their contemporaries?

Agreed about the attrition, as RAAF attrition in general is pretty low as far as I can tell.

As for modification, if the Starfighters are Australian assembled there might be a push to re-engine it or otherwise give Australian industry more of an input. The Mirage IIIO came close to getting an Avon engine fitted with potential big benefits before the standard Atar won out (possibly/apocryphally due to intentionally dodgy metric/imperial conversions from the French side).

 

[La Rouge Beret]

As for modification, if the Starfighters are Australian assembled there might be a push to re-engine it or otherwise give Australian industry more of an input. The Mirage IIIO came close to getting an Avon engine fitted with potential big benefits before the standard Atar won out (possibly/apocryphally due to intentionally dodgy metric/imperial conversions from the French side).

That is exactly what I was thinking with regards to modifications to the fleet that the Starfighter may be reengined. On another internet blog someone raised an argument that if the Starfighter's wing area was increased that it would have improved handling... would Australian industry make that leap at the time? Hard to say.

 

[chrislondon]

I would have thought the F104 too short legged for the RAAF, but the the MIII is not much better. They really need something more like the F4[/QUOTE]

I have just checked and fir comparable loads the m3 had almost double the range of the f104. The f4 fully loaded had less range than the m3 but if you dropped the weapon load to that of a m3 and putvthe rest on as fuel it was ahead and more flexible.

 

[Riain]

In the non nuclear role the f104 might be too limited. IIUC in Vietnam USAF F104 carried a pair of 750lb bombs and I think the Mirage carried significantly more than that.

 

[Cockroach]

Agreed about the attrition, as RAAF attrition in general is pretty low as far as I can tell.

The RAAF lost something like 43 out of it's 116 strong Mirage fleet, so 35%ish losses over 24 years... which isn't terribly different to the fraction of their F-104s the Germans lost over 27 years. But it is quite a bit better than the Canucks' experience with the F-104.

 

[Zheng He]

In the non nuclear role the f104 might be too limited. IIUC in Vietnam USAF F104 carried a pair of 750lb bombs and I think the Mirage carried significantly more than that.

Limited as an interceptor too because it could not carry a very big radar.

 

[Guilherme Loureiro]

Limited as an interceptor too because it could not carry a very big radar.

Well, the Cyrano I/II of the Mirage III wasn't great either, but it might have been better than the F-104 radar.

 

[Mumbles]

The RAAF lost something like 43 out of it's 116 strong Mirage fleet, so 35%ish losses over 24 years... which isn't terribly different to the fraction of their F-104s the Germans lost over 27 years. But it is quite a bit better than the Canucks' experience with the F-104.

That's actually a lot higher than I remembered. I must have been thinking of some other type.

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Its really interesting looking at the variance in attrition rates for the type between Air Forces. IIRC the Norwegians provide a pretty stark comparison with a very low loss rate, but that can also be explained by the fact that it was only operated by very, very experienced pilots.

 

[Riain]

Does anyone know what version of the f104 the RAAF was looking at ?

 

[Mumbles]

Does anyone know what version of the f104 the RAAF was looking at ?

I'd think something based around the G would be most likely.

 

[Riain]

Yes it looks like a G version was what was being looked at.

If the RAAF got the F104 G-A would the RAAF deploy them to Vietnam or Thailand in support of operations in Vietnam?

 

[La Rouge Beret]

Good question I think the answer is yes based upon the inquiries that were made about deploying the Mirage III during OTL.

 

[Riain]

What would an f104 squadron do in Vietnam, would they displace otl canberras in the CAS role in the south, replace 79 squadron in Thailand or something different again.