WI R class same speed as QE's

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Just before World War I in 1914 the Admirality ordered to design a new battlecruiser which would complement the new battleship construction of the time, the Revenge class. This new design would be very similar to both the Revenge and Queen Elizabeth classes but it would be longer and continuing the battlecruiser heritage it would carry the same armament as their battleship cousins but armour thickness was sacrificed for extra speed. Official designation was Design Y, but some sources refer to them as Super Tigers.
This design would had been the true battlecruiser version of the Revenge class Battleships rather the quick solution of the Renown class which were built but used the names allocated for the last 3 Revenge class: HMS Renown, Repulse, Resistance.


Data on the design:
Dimensions: 207,3m (pp) x 29,3m x 8,84m
Displacement: 31.350tons standard
Engine: 108.000shp Steam Turbines, 4 shafts
Maximum Speed: 56km/h (30knots)
Armour: 279mm Belt, 64mm Deck
Armaments:
4x2 15" (381mm) Cannons
16x1 6" (152mm) Casemated Guns
4x1 3" (76mm) AA Guns
4x1 21" (533mm) Underwater Torpedo Tubes

This might tantalise you folks.

Artist - http://tzoli.deviantart.com/
 
They are basically a proto-Admiral type ship, 30 knots, 11-inch belt 8 x 15-inch Mk1's and basically the same lousy secondary layout of the QE's. Although the fluff says they are BC versions of the R's, these are really BC versions of the QE.

So how about swapping out the R's for them?

I'm not sure if it would be accepted, they still have only an 11 inch belt but that speed... they put any other BC to shame. And are the best protected of the RN battlecruisers. Perhaps the RN heard about the building of the Makensens early or something, or had a naval scare about a super battlecruiser the Germans were supposedly building. That could lead to a response in the form of the 'Super Tigers' instead of the R's.
 
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But then the follies served well as carriers, although i'd happily sacrifice two or maybe even three Admiral type hulls to turn into carriers instead of the three follies.
 
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How about this as a possible TL.

With tensions mounting in Europe in 1912 the Royal Navy laid down the first of what would become the Queen Elisabeth class battleships, revolutionary in many ways thanks to their heavy guns and oil burning engines they would start joining the fleet from 1914 onwards. At the same time concerns about the growing strength of the German navy were rumbling around the Admiralty and halls of Government.

In April 1912 a report reached the Admiralty obtained by agents working in Germany, it detailed the Germans latest battlecruisers, supposedly a 33,000 ton monster with 14 or even 15-inch guns was being constructed and this sent a surge of alarm through the Admiralty.
Whilst the newest Battlecruiser, HMS Tiger was a formidable ship, she would be inferior to the new German vessels in terms of firepower and protection. And if the Germans were able to built more of these new vessels then they could well sweep the Navy's battlecruisers from the sea.

With the budget for 1913/1914 already being looked at, an answer was felt needed to rise to the challenge of the German battlecruisers. A huge row would erupt, not aided by the fact that someone leaked the details to both Churchill and Fisher, both of whom spoke to friends and colleagues in Fleet Street.

Eventually with the 1913 budget a change was proposed in the building plan.

The planned Revenge class battleship would be cancelled and construction not started.
Three more Queen Elisabeth class ships would be laid down in their stead, bringing the total to eight.
Slips would be prepared to construct five new battlecruisers with one funded in part by Canada and would be commanded by a Canadian officer, much like HMS Australia and HMS New Zealand. Construction on these new battlecruisers would start in 1914.

In April 1914 the final design was completed for the new battlecruiser. In part based upon the hull of HMS Tiger, the new ships would feature the successful 15-inch Mk1 gun of the Queen Elisabeth class and like those Dreadnoughts, would be oil burning. Wanting as high a speed as possible whilst retaining good protection the DNC successfully argued for the introduction of both geared shaft turbines and small tube boilers for the new vessels. He argued that if they retained their current machinery, then they could have speed or protection, but with the weight saved from the new boilers, which were already in service on cruisers and destroyers, the weight could go into the ships protective scheme, giving the design the combination of speed, firepower and protection the Admiralty wanted.

The first ship, HMS Revenge was laid down three days after the Archduke of Austria-Hungary was assassinated, and two of her sisterships the Renown and Repulse were laid down two weeks later. The final two, Royal Oak and Ontario would follow in June and July. With the outbreak of war and thanks to Fisher and Churchills influence, resources were thrown at the eight new ships under construction. The three new Queen Elisabeths, HMS Agincourt, HMS Royal Oak and HMS Glorious would complete between 1915 - 1916. The new Revenge class battlecruisers, delayed slightly by bottlenecks in gun production, started to join the fleet in late 1915 and by the 31st of May, HMS Revenge, Renown and Repulse were part of the battlecruiser fleet, whilst Ontario was on her trials. Royal Oak would not finish until 1917.

The rush to produce these vessels stymied and canceled First Lord Fisher's plans for a 'large light cruiser' the design of which died on the drawingboard and after he left the Admiralty any plans for such large vessels of that type was permanently cancelled.

The super battlecruisers the Germans were building never actually emerged, it turned out that an agent and his handler, both looking for advancement exaggerated the details of the Lutzow class vessels, as well as mixing up rumors that the Germans were working on a 15-inch gun that would eventually see service on the Bayern class, instead thinking they were bound for the Lutzows.

With the Battlecruiser fleet becoming so large a formation, it was decided to split the command, much to Admiral Beatty's chargrin.

1st Independent Battlecruiser Force as at 31st May 1916

Flag - HMS Lion
HMS Queen Mary, HMS, Princess Royal, HMS Tiger.
HMS Revenge, HMS Renown, HMS Repulse

Attached from Grand Fleet

5th Battle Squadron
HMS Queen Elisabeth, HMS Valiant, HMS Warspite, HMS Barham (HMS Malaya under repair following her being rammed by HMS Lawford).

2nd Independent Battlecruiser Force

HMS Invincible - Flag
HMS Australia, HMS New Zealand,
HMS Indomitable, HMS Indifatigable, HMS Inflexible

The 2nd BCF was attached to the Grand fleet, all six ships recently having completed gunnery training in Scapa Flow, hence the attachment of the 5th BS to the 1st BCF. Both HMS Royal Oak and HMS Agincourt would also be part of the Grand Fleet, whilst HMS Glorious did not sail due to condenser issues that prevented her from raising steam properly.

These two powerful ships were with the Grand fleet and not the 5th BS because they were brand new, with crews still becoming accustomed to their vessels. It was felt that it was safer to have them with the slower Grand Fleet and not push ships barely out of their trials too much with the BCF, this was also in part due to hindsight.
At Dogger Bank the brand new Tiger had performed poorly, with her crew and ship itself still on their shake down. Not wishing to repeat such problems, the two newest Queen's would stay with the Grand Fleet.

Fortunately the three R's attached to the 1st BCF were fully shaken down, having all missed Dogger Bank and then spent the period in between training and sailing. All three being noted for their good gunnery although the title of best gunnery ship in the Battlecruiser fleet was still held by HMS Queen Mary.

The attachment of the 2nd BCF allowed Admiral Jellico to leave the first and second cruiser squadrons behind, much to Admiral Arbuthnot's disgust, his anger was so great that he complained in the press about it, an action that caused a small storm in the Admiralty and Parliment before he chose to retire for 'health reasons'. In truth he was dismissed, only standing down due to threat of courts martial.

The Post War Era.

After the Great War ended, the United Kingdom was in poor financial straights but was militarily strong. A planned successor to the Revenge class had been laid down in 1917 but construction was very slow and all three were still little more than empty hulls by 1918 when construction was halted whilst their future was debated.

At the 1923 Washington Naval Treaty the Royal Navy saw its great strength reduced. All remaining 12-inch gunned ships would be disposed of, either scrapped or sold. The 13.5-inch armed vessels would likewise be scrapped or sold with only two ships, HMS Iron Duke and HMS Tiger retained as training vessels in a semi-disarmed state.

All eight Queen and five R class ships would be retained but the three Admiral class vessels under construction would be halted and were selected to be converted into aircraft carriers. The UK would also be allowed to complete 3 x 16-inch gunned vessels to equal those being built in Japan and America.

Whilst the HMS Fearless, Furious and Dauntless would eventually enter service in 1921 - 22 as large aircraft carriers the new 16-inch gunned battleships didn't join the fleet until 1923, these ships, Hood, Nelson and Rodney would have a conventional layout and like the Americans would do, used some creative accounting to exceed the treaty limitations by 3000 tons which was worked into their armour and engines, giving the ships a 25 knot speed which matched the Queen class vessels.

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Thoughts and criticism are most welcome!
 
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But then the follies served well as carriers, although i'd happily sacrifice two or maybe even three Admiral type hulls to turn into carriers instead of the three follies.
Furious was classed as an experimental carrier under the Washington Treaty so she'd probably get the same rebuild as otl. If there were any incomplete Admiral hulls then it would be two of them that were converted instead of Courageous and Glorious, probably to the same basic design as real life as it was based off lessons learned from Furious's rebuild, though of course larger. This would give Britain two carriers equal to the Lexingtons, Akagi and Kaga, which should increase the pressure to transfer the FAA to the Royal Navy. Ships of that size working with the miniscule airgroups the RAF were willing to provide would be a huge embarrassment and something would have to be done to change that.
 
The 20's and onwards

The most contentious issue of the period for the Royal navy was the rebirth of the RNAS. With the creation of the RAF a bitter row broke out over who got to control aircraft in British military service. The RAF was very much of the mind that if it flew, then it was theirs, as the young new service tried to make its mark on the world. With the Fearless class in service by 1925 though the situation was becoming intolerable for the RN. The RAF refused to supply enough aircraft for the three carriers as well as the Argus, Eagle and Hermes. Whilst the Fearless class could easily carry 72 aircraft, they rarely carried half that, with the RAF citing a lack of production space to fill out the gaps. Eventually a row developed between the Admiralty and Air Ministry with both ministries washing their laundry in public and causing a stink in Government.

Neither side would back down and it eventually took a word from the King, himself a Navy man to help settle the 'disquieting matter' between the two services. The RN would get control over its own aircraft, crews and training, but production would have to be met for both services. This compromise agreement as well as agreements to share the cost of aircraft and engine development silenced the Air Ministry and the RN was happy.

Still it wasn't until 1928 that the situation was fully resolved, the establishment of training facilities and larger production lines took time. Whilst the Admiralty and Air Ministry bickered the officers of both arms got on well enough and shared their experience willingly and during the period the FAA operated navalised versions of the RAF's machines, not needing their own designs with the technological limits of the period.

Refits and modernisation

As the 20's turned into the 30's the Royal Navy like the other services found its budgets severly shortened as the Great Depression swept across the globe. Still the Admiralty sought to modernise its battle line and in 1930 in an effort to keep shipyards open and men employed began a large series of refits. Two Queens and two R's would go in for modernisation and alteration, and when they where complete, the next four ships would go in. Cruiser and destroyer production continued within the funding available whilst a new aircraft carrier also began construction.

The refits were uniform in nature, the Queen's retained some of their 6-inch casemate guns but most were removed and the ports plated over, deck armour was increased over the engines and magazines whilst aircraft facilities were also incorperated along with a new superstructure. Changes to the engines saw the older plant replaced with lighter and more modern machinery and extra anti-aircraft guns were fitted (Basically the OTL Warspite refit).

The more valuable R's also recived alterations to their superstructure and upgrades to their engines and deck armour was also increased. All of the 6-inch guns were surpressed and a new 4.5-inch AA mount was installed to provide defense against destroyers and aircraft. Like the Queens they recived facilities for handling aircraft and additional AA guns. (Akin to the OTL refits the Queen Elisabeth and Valiant got).

The three more modern Admiral class ships were not so heavily refitted, additional AA guns were installed and some armour was improved but the main work was spent getting their troublesome 16-inch turrets to work correctly.

The Fearless class lost their 5.5-inch guns and saw the addition of a large number of 4.7 inch dual mounts whilst aircraft handling facilities were also improved along with their close in defences being augmented.

Treaties

The London Naval Treaty saw little change for the fleet, more a continuation of the rules laid down by the Washington Naval Treaty. The Second London Naval Treaty though fell apart when Japan refused to attend and Italy promptly pulled out. Because of this the French refused to attend whilst both the USA and UK saw little point in trying to enforce a treaty when no-one else would. With tensions rising in Europe the Admiralty placed an order for its first battleships to be built since the Great War and planned them to be treaty complient, invoking the escalator clause to arm the ships with 16-inch Mk2 guns. Whilst visually based on the older Admiral class, the new King George the Fifth class were superior in terms of protection and speed, capable of reaching 28 knots. The 16-inch Mk2 gun would feature a heavier shell than the Mk1, and whilst this reduced muzzle velocity it made the gun more accurate and gave it a longer barrel life.

Four new carriers would also be ordered during this period whilst Australia and New Zealand, thanks to specific wording in the (altered) Washington Naval treaty would order a light carrier of their own with plans to order a second to join the RAN/RNZN.
The debate over what form the fleet's new carriers would take was also a matter of great debate. Initial plans called for a carrier that would carry a modest number of aircraft but would feature heavy protection to ensure that when attacked and if damaged the ship could get home safely. But the officers in charge of the carriers themselves, including the Commander of the Carrier squadron saw this as a false econimy.

Experience from the 20's when the RN/RNAS didn't have enough aircraft for its carriers showed that a lesser number of aircraft weakened the striking and defensive capabilities of the carriers. They argued that a carriers whole purpose was to carry planes, not to act as an airdrome for a small number of craft that would at best be able to harass an enemy. The carriers that would emerge would instead be based upon the Ark Royal who had been successful in service and could carry a large number of aircraft.

The smaller carriers built for the RAN would be based upon the Hermes, albeit an enlarged design capable of taking 24 more modern aircraft than the Hermes and capable of a higher speed.


Again i'm just spitballing here, any thoughts/ideas on this? I'm off to have sushi, back later!
 
I like your Idea Steamboy even if I think its a bit more verging towards a RN wank than realistic,

The planned Revenge class battleship would be cancelled and construction not started.
My favourite is simply this no R class, no R&R, no LLC, no Hood...... ok lots of ASW escorts and 15" monitors as well as unimaginable amounts of stuff for the army, the QEs are sufficient for WWI service.

Come WNT GB simply agrees that a 10 year capital holiday is a good idea but that it started its holiday on 1 February 1916 so it should be able to lay down its first replacement ship on 1st Feb 1924. That or you could just let us save money by finishing the four G3s just laid down?
 
If the navy gets the coastal squadrons as well as ship bourn aircraft back then I'd say it's the RNAS reborn. If its just ship born aircraft then it's the FAA.
 
It is a bit wankey, but then again it seems that many what we would see as obvious improvements or possible changes to the RN would make the fleet more potent and dangerous and would be a bit of a wank :p Still it makes a change from the tit jobs that the Imperial Germans or Nazi's get :p
 
How about the Air Force gets split into 5 components - for the 3 services

Fighter Command - Defence of the British Isles - (RAF)
Bomber Command - Offensive Bomber operations - (RAF)
Army Air Corps - CAS/Recce/Liaison operations - (AAC)
Coastal Command - MLR and land based anti shipping - (RNAS)
Fleet Air arm - Carrier based and catapult squadrons/detachments - (RNAS)
 
That could work, the AAC could still fall under the perview of the RAF and the RNAS land bases are also under their command (mainly to sooth bruised air ministry egos).
 
The UK would also be allowed to complete 3 x 16-inch gunned vessels to equal those being built in Japan and America.

Whilst the HMS Fearless, Furious and Dauntless would eventually enter service in 1921 - 22 as large aircraft carriers the new 16-inch gunned battleships didn't join the fleet until 1923, these ships, Hood, Nelson and Rodney would have a conventional layout and like the Americans would do, used some creative accounting to exceed the treaty limitations by 3000 tons which was worked into their armour and engines, giving the ships a 25 knot speed which matched the Queen class vessels.

A0Qa922.png



Thoughts and criticism are most welcome!

Do remember that the turret arrangement on the OTL NelRods was intended to allow the main protective belt to be shorter in length therefore requiring less of the ships weight to be used up as armour - so the conventional layout in that fine picture (and it is a fine picture - good find) would either result in a lighter armour scheme or compromises elsewhere - such as machinary which would make the vessel slower.

I've alway wondered how much faster the Nelrods would have been if they had settled on 15" instead of 16" and used the saved weight in machinery?

Given the efforts made in improving the 15" shells during and after WW1 for me it makes a lot of sense in leveraging the knowledge into a new triple turret / gun system than increasing to 16"

The other change required is a better assessment of Cruisers - keep the weight at 8K max for the treaties regardless of armament and Britain to design a 9 gun (3 x 3) - 6" armed cruiser and forgo all 8" 'heavy CAs' - so a 8K Leander type class with 9 x 6" guns - spam out 40+ of these instead of the OTL County, York, Leander and Arethusa classes before moving onto the Towns which will have a similar layout
 
I'll have to find the PDF where I found that ship, she's a 38k ton design (empty) though, vs 35k for the Nelrods. I'm not too ofay on the treaties and I dunno if the UK could argue for a 38k ton design or say "Yes...its 35,000 tons...honest..." and them smile VERY sweetly. After all the USN did it with the Saratoga's and lied through the back of their teeth re their weight. And the treaty could be used by the USN to alter the three lolerado's and improve protection etc whilst the IJN could alter the two Mutsu's.
 
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