WI R class same speed as QE's

WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from? The could and perhaps should be new builds but with the US and Japan being forced to convert incomplete Battlecruisers I can see Britain being coerced into doing conversions. If any of the Admirals are incomplete then they will be converted, however I don't see that as likely. Any incomplete ships will have been scrapped as otl. That leaves the splendid cats, they're large, fast not too old ships that are redundant. I'll assume only 2 Admirals have survived leaving Tiger in service as otl. Lion and Princess Royal both went into reserve in 1920 and weren't sold for scrap till December 1922 and January 1924. I see these two ships being rebuilt as carriers instead, possibly with Tiger following at the end of the decade though that's more doubtful.
I think any Lion and PR rebuilds would be more a case of moving the name plate... they had been run hard with a lot of miles and I just cant see why a rebuild that includes significant hull strengthening and new engines would make any sense.

I think in an ideal world the RN builds 2x Argus early and then simply waits for a new set of post war ships in the 20s.
 
WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from?
New construction using the money that IOTL was spent on building Nelson and Rodney and converting the Three Follies to flush-deck aircraft carriers in the 1930s.
The 2 Nelsons aren't built. The £15 million spent building them IOTL and the £6 million spent converting the Three Follies into flush deck carriers is instead used to build 3 bespoke aircraft carriers of 22,000 tons and some more County class cruisers.
As they were purpose designed ships they would carry more aircraft per ton of displacement than the OTL ships. They were also likely to have better underwater protection so the TTL Courageous might survive being hit by 2 torpedoes in 1939.
 
As I said new builds are preferable but given the political and economic climate in the early 20's I'm not convinced that would be the road they went down, especially as at the time no one really knows what the role of a carrier is. I can see a second Hermes being ordered in the early 20's and possibly a couple of true fleet carriers in 28 or early 29 but if they're not on the stocks before the crash then it's going to be 10 years before they would reach the fleet.
 
Which is why I wrote.It's wishful thinking.
Not necessarily.
Jackie Fisher resigned on the 15th May 1915, over wrangling with Churchill about Gallipolli.
Courageous was laid down on 26th March, Glorious on 1st May, Furious not until 8th June.
A rapid review of Fishers building decisions could see these 3 cancelled or abandoned on the slips - 2 barely started, 1 not even laid down.
It wouldn't take much, even at the time these ships were plainly bonkers.

Renown and Repulse were both laid down on 25th January 1915, so although slightly further along a decision to cancel and reuse the materials on something else wasn't impossible.
Or continue, but with added armour compensated for by using small-tube boilers.
 
I think the alteration in design of a class of battleships causes enough butterflies that we can't be certain of the order of battle for Jutland, if it even happens. The presence of the Queen Elizabeth class ships with Beatty was contrary to usual practice. The Invincible class had been detatched for training and HMAS Australia had been damaged colliding with HMS New Zealand (not HMS Queen Elizabeth as someone else stated, which I believe was on a routine refit). Even if Jellicoe had extra Queen Elizabeth class ships under his command, he very well might have kept them with the Grand Fleet.
 
I think the alteration in design of a class of battleships causes enough butterflies that we can't be certain of the order of battle for Jutland, if it even happens. The presence of the Queen Elizabeth class ships with Beatty was contrary to usual practice. The Invincible class had been detatched for training and HMAS Australia had been damaged colliding with HMS New Zealand (not HMS Queen Elizabeth as someone else stated, which I believe was on a routine refit). Even if Jellicoe had extra Queen Elizabeth class ships under his command, he very well might have kept them with the Grand Fleet.
The presence of the QEs with Beaty was a purposeful decision. Previously the BCs had had worse gunnery than the BBs because they were based in a harbour they couldn't do gunnery work. The decision was made to rotate the BCs and the QEs so that one squadron would be doing gunnery in scapa two would be further south able to interfere with any German forces.
 
The presence of the QEs with Beaty was a purposeful decision. Previously the BCs had had worse gunnery than the BBs because they were based in a harbour they couldn't do gunnery work. The decision was made to rotate the BCs and the QEs so that one squadron would be doing gunnery in scapa two would be further south able to interfere with any German forces.

I'm aware of why the British order of battle was arranged as it was, I'm just unconvinced that the historical presence of the 5th Battle Squadron alongside the main battlecruiser squadrons guarantees that additional battleships built to the standard of the Queen Elizabeth class would have been deployed under the command of Admiral Beatty in an allohistorical Battle of Jutland.
 
I think Repulse and Renown would still be built, it's in keeping with the attitudes of the times to have the size of the BCs guns increase alongside that of the BBs. The Follies a waste of 6 perfectly good 15" turrets and later 2 Iffy 18.1" turrets.
 
I think Repulse and Renown would still be built, it's in keeping with the attitudes of the times to have the size of the BCs guns increase alongside that of the BBs. The Follies a waste of 6 perfectly good 15" turrets and later 2 Iffy 18.1" turrets.

How about 4 ships, with a sister to then OTL three, it could take the name Formidable as the pre-dred with that name has been sunk, then when its realised that the whole idea is lousy there are 4 large ships to eventually convert to carriers, I would prefer a 4th Folly to Vindictive and Hermes.
 
Ok, I can see the extra 9 QEs being planned but there is one large problem with how you see things developing. Jackie Fisher. He wants Battlecruisers and if he's reinstated as First Sea Lord he's going to get them. Your 2 war emergency ships will be built as BCs along the lines of Repulse and Renown. He's also going to push his fixation on a Baltic landing so unless stopped the tin clads are still likely to be ordered, though hopefully can be delayed long enough they can be canceled when he's sacked. That leaves the problem of carriers without Furious to convert. I see Argus being ordered earlier and possibly Hermes and Eagle as well.

WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from? The could and perhaps should be new builds but with the US and Japan being forced to convert incomplete Battlecruisers I can see Britain being coerced into doing conversions. If any of the Admirals are incomplete then they will be converted, however I don't see that as likely. Any incomplete ships will have been scrapped as otl. That leaves the splendid cats, they're large, fast not too old ships that are redundant. I'll assume only 2 Admirals have survived leaving Tiger in service as otl. Lion and Princess Royal both went into reserve in 1920 and weren't sold for scrap till December 1922 and January 1924. I see these two ships being rebuilt as carriers instead, possibly with Tiger following at the end of the decade though that's more doubtful.
As I wrote in the first reply was that it was a piece of wishful thinking.

I chickened out of including it in Post 19, but I was going to write that instead of accepting a reduction from 20 to 15 capital ships in the TTL 1930 WNT the British Government only accepts an extension of the battleship building holiday until 31st December 1936.

The Admiralty's price for accepting this was that the 8 oldest battleships would be modernised by the end of 1936. Four of the 1912 programme ships were refitted 1931-34 followed by the fifth 1912 ship and 3 oldest 1913 programme ships 1934-37. They were refitted to the same standard as Warspite in her 1934-37 refit of OTL. Her refit cost £2.5 million or about a third the estimated cost of a new battleship.

In 1936 it was decided to give another 4 old battleships full modernisations. These were the 2 remaining 1913 programme ships and 2 of the 1914 programme ships. These had their refits 1937-40. The 4 Queen Elizabeths built ITTL weren't completed until 1918 and as a result their machinery was in much better condition because they had only seen a few years war service. Therefore they didn't need modernising as badly as their elder sisters.

Four were modernised at a time because the RN of the late 1920s IOTL operated its 20 capital ships in 4 squadrons.
First Battle Squadron
Second Battle Squadron
Third (Boys Training) Squadron
Battle Cruiser Squadron​

As my ALT-Hoods were fast battleships rather than battle cruisers the 4 capital ship squadrons of ITTL would all be named battle squadron numbered from one to four with the Fourth Battle Squadron being the boys training squadron. Each squadron would have a nominal strength of 4 ships and as 4 x 4 = 16 the other 4 ships would be having long refits.

So instead of going into World War II with 15 capital ships the Royal Navy went into it with 20. IOTL there were 2 Nelsons, Hood, 2 Repluse class (Repulse partially modernised and Renown fully modernised), 5 Queen Elizabeth class (3 fully modernised and one partially modernised) and 5 Revenge class. ITTL there were 4 ALT-Hood class and 16 Queen Elizabeth class (12 fully modernised).
 
At the time of the design of the Iron Duke there was design for an Iron Duke much like the eventual QE designed as a fast battleship of 23-24 knots.

If built and if a fast R class was built would we see the GF split into 2 wings, a fast wing and a slow wing and would Germany have had more success in separating a squadron of the Grand Fleet from the rest. Perhaps Britain would roll the dice and give the IDs the QEs free reign with the battlecruiser s to chase a retreating grand fleet and this fast wing (3 ID 5QE and 2R and the battlecruisers) would independently face the HSF in a Jutland analogue.

Ironically this design of faster ships could play into Germany's hand as their goal was to separate and defeat in detail the Royal Navy. Well this is a large squadron that could just face off against the HSF so maybe they will give battle and lose or win.
 
I'm aware of why the British order of battle was arranged as it was, I'm just unconvinced that the historical presence of the 5th Battle Squadron alongside the main battlecruiser squadrons guarantees that additional battleships built to the standard of the Queen Elizabeth class would have been deployed under the command of Admiral Beatty in an allohistorical Battle of Jutland.

Its a fair point - but how would the GF have deployed the 2nd QE squadron as they are faster than the main line Battleships. To me it makes sense to deploy them operating together as 2 x 3 ship squadrons with QE as Flag under Admiral Evan-Thomas - but equally possible one of the 2 demi Squadrons operate with Hood s 1st BC Squadron in support of the main fleet.

Having had a thunk about it - I think that the entire group remains as part of Beatty's Command indefinitely therefore allowing for individual Squadrons to rotate through Scarpa and improve their gunnery with the QE squadrons taking their turns.
 
HMS Canada had similar speed to the Queen Elizabeth class ships, and yet was deployed with the Grand Fleet. When the German battlecruisers raided Scarborough, the Second Battle Squadron, which consisted of ships of the King George V class was forward deployed because Beatty's battlecruiser squadrons were under strength, like at Jutland. The fact that slow ships sometimes sailed with battlecruisers, and that faster battleships usually sailed alongside other battleships indicates to me that the 5th battle squadron's disposition at Jutland was purely to strengthen the scouting forces, and not a reflection of a doctrine that fast battleships sailed with battlecruisers.

However, an alteration of doctrine could be partly responsible for why the Revenge class has its design modified, and a fast and slow wing of the battlefleet might be formed on that premise, but that's an extra POD.
 
The Battlecruisers find the enemy, while the Fast BBs keep the enemy Battlecruisers at a respectful distance as the main battle line sorts itself out into the best formation to take on the main enemy fleet?
 
The Battlecruisers find the enemy, while the Fast BBs keep the enemy Battlecruisers at a respectful distance as the main battle line sorts itself out into the best formation to take on the main enemy fleet?

Not entirely true. The purpose of battlecruisers as figghting ships was primarily to push aside opposing (both armored and light) cruisers of enemy scouting forces in order to maintain contact with the enemy fleet. They needed to be supported themselves by smaller forces of cruisers and destroyers, as the battlecruisers themselves were not very capable of dealign with torpedocraft on their own.

Besides this fleetrole, the battlecruiser also had a secodnary purpose, which wa to hunt down enemy cruisers inthe open ocean in a commerce protecting role, or something like that. Only one time this was reality, at the battle of the Falklands.
 
The Battlecruisers find the enemy, while the Fast BBs keep the enemy Battlecruisers at a respectful distance as the main battle line sorts itself out into the best formation to take on the main enemy fleet?

Ultimately its up to the HSF to break the status quo - ie weaken the British fleet enough to effectively contest the North Sea and break the blockade - in order to do so they need to give battle and their prefered method was to 'lure' a portion of the British fleet into battle with as much of the HSF as could be brought to bear.

Which is a great plan so long as the British do exactly what the Germans expect them to do.

With 6-7 Fast BBs backing up the 7-10 BCs any such attempt might very well see the HSF forces getting badly mauled with out a very large portion of the German fleet being present to even begin to match Beatty's force.

A smaller German force of say the Scouting force of BCs under this scenario conducting a 'scarborough style raid' will have to leave behind any ships slowed by damage to get snapped up.
 
Considering that on the day the gunnery of the 5th Battle Squadron was very good with hits and straddles being scored quite consistently at the 19,000 yard mark an engagement where there's more ships of that caliber supporting The Idiot's battlecruisers would probably be a bad thing for the 1st Scouting Group. But of course it depends on how The Idiot works with them. Will it be a case of him not even bothering to speak with the 5th BS's Commander and when he see's the Germans to go running off after them and not tell the 5th BS what he's doing as per OTL?

And re the Admiral class, they were BC versions of the QE hull. The protection was very much the same, armament identical, the obvious thing being the speed, but the Admirals were a BC version of the QE's.
 
I've always been a huge fan of the QE class Fast Battleships.

Now in our Jutland the RN had 4 of these magnificent ships, who rushed to the aid of the Beaty's Battlecruiers who were taking a pounding from the German Battlecruisers. And they managed to drive them off as i recall.

Now heres a slight change in history. The QE's were built apparantly at old Winston's insistance when he took over the admiralty. So what if he gets in a little quicker, and manages to get a bit more influence on spending.

Heres what I think could have happened.

Upon arriving at the admiralty Winston notices that HMS Tiger has been ordered. He instead cancels it, and when he orders the QE's uses the funds to buy a 5th. He also manages to secure funding for a 6th unit the Agincourt - which in our timeline he did get but was cancelled.
Shortly after this he gets the welcome news that Malaysia has offered to fund the building of a 7th QE. So now Winston's really on a roll. But doesnt want an odd number of ships, as the fleet is arranged in squadrons of 4. With this in mind he contacts the PM, and both of them put influence on Canada to "pull its weight" in Imperial Defence - pointing out HMS Australia, HMS New Zealand and HMS Malaysia. So an 8th unit is ordered, HMS Canada.

Edit: Just read taht the Canadian Naval Aid Bill of 1913 was going to fund 3 QE's. So if Winston and the PM can get the Canadians to go for this, that would give 10 QEs!

Now at this point Winston can't really do anything wrong in the eyes of the Admiralty, so despite wanting a force of slightly slower more traditional batleships for the North Sea, they accept instead his offer of the R class being a slightly improved QE class. So another 8 R class battleships are added.

The effect this has on the RN at Jutland is this.

One less BC in Beaty's Force.
But the Fast Battleships rushing to his aid wont just be 4 ships. If the QE is down for repairs as in our timeline, and lets say another is also down for refit, then th ere would still be 8-10 QE or R's steaming towards the German BC. With at least double the 15 inch guns in action against them, I can see the BC Screen being torn apart. Which would leave the Grand Fleet free to go after the Battlefleet of the HSF without the distraction of the "Death Ride of the Battlecruisers".

And with the vindication of the fast battleship - i could see all the R's being complete as such. So no Repulse and Renown tin clads.

A long long long time ago when I was first getting started on this board I typed this up as a hypothetical idea of how to get more QE's in the RN both during and after WW1... Seems relevant. :p
 
If rightly or wrongly Intelligence (or perhaps better the press) reported that the Germans were laying down a class of battleships designed to match the Queen Elizabeth Class in speed and firepower? Another campaign of "we want eight and we won't wait"?
 
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