Which is why I wrote.Ok, I can see the extra 9 QEs being planned but there is one large problem with how you see things developing. Jackie Fisher.
It's wishful thinking.What I wished they had done was:
Which is why I wrote.Ok, I can see the extra 9 QEs being planned but there is one large problem with how you see things developing. Jackie Fisher.
It's wishful thinking.What I wished they had done was:
I think any Lion and PR rebuilds would be more a case of moving the name plate... they had been run hard with a lot of miles and I just cant see why a rebuild that includes significant hull strengthening and new engines would make any sense.WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from? The could and perhaps should be new builds but with the US and Japan being forced to convert incomplete Battlecruisers I can see Britain being coerced into doing conversions. If any of the Admirals are incomplete then they will be converted, however I don't see that as likely. Any incomplete ships will have been scrapped as otl. That leaves the splendid cats, they're large, fast not too old ships that are redundant. I'll assume only 2 Admirals have survived leaving Tiger in service as otl. Lion and Princess Royal both went into reserve in 1920 and weren't sold for scrap till December 1922 and January 1924. I see these two ships being rebuilt as carriers instead, possibly with Tiger following at the end of the decade though that's more doubtful.
New construction using the money that IOTL was spent on building Nelson and Rodney and converting the Three Follies to flush-deck aircraft carriers in the 1930s.WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from?
As they were purpose designed ships they would carry more aircraft per ton of displacement than the OTL ships. They were also likely to have better underwater protection so the TTL Courageous might survive being hit by 2 torpedoes in 1939.The 2 Nelsons aren't built. The £15 million spent building them IOTL and the £6 million spent converting the Three Follies into flush deck carriers is instead used to build 3 bespoke aircraft carriers of 22,000 tons and some more County class cruisers.
Not necessarily.Which is why I wrote.It's wishful thinking.
The presence of the QEs with Beaty was a purposeful decision. Previously the BCs had had worse gunnery than the BBs because they were based in a harbour they couldn't do gunnery work. The decision was made to rotate the BCs and the QEs so that one squadron would be doing gunnery in scapa two would be further south able to interfere with any German forces.I think the alteration in design of a class of battleships causes enough butterflies that we can't be certain of the order of battle for Jutland, if it even happens. The presence of the Queen Elizabeth class ships with Beatty was contrary to usual practice. The Invincible class had been detatched for training and HMAS Australia had been damaged colliding with HMS New Zealand (not HMS Queen Elizabeth as someone else stated, which I believe was on a routine refit). Even if Jellicoe had extra Queen Elizabeth class ships under his command, he very well might have kept them with the Grand Fleet.
The presence of the QEs with Beaty was a purposeful decision. Previously the BCs had had worse gunnery than the BBs because they were based in a harbour they couldn't do gunnery work. The decision was made to rotate the BCs and the QEs so that one squadron would be doing gunnery in scapa two would be further south able to interfere with any German forces.
I think Repulse and Renown would still be built, it's in keeping with the attitudes of the times to have the size of the BCs guns increase alongside that of the BBs. The Follies a waste of 6 perfectly good 15" turrets and later 2 Iffy 18.1" turrets.
As I wrote in the first reply was that it was a piece of wishful thinking.Ok, I can see the extra 9 QEs being planned but there is one large problem with how you see things developing. Jackie Fisher. He wants Battlecruisers and if he's reinstated as First Sea Lord he's going to get them. Your 2 war emergency ships will be built as BCs along the lines of Repulse and Renown. He's also going to push his fixation on a Baltic landing so unless stopped the tin clads are still likely to be ordered, though hopefully can be delayed long enough they can be canceled when he's sacked. That leaves the problem of carriers without Furious to convert. I see Argus being ordered earlier and possibly Hermes and Eagle as well.
WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from? The could and perhaps should be new builds but with the US and Japan being forced to convert incomplete Battlecruisers I can see Britain being coerced into doing conversions. If any of the Admirals are incomplete then they will be converted, however I don't see that as likely. Any incomplete ships will have been scrapped as otl. That leaves the splendid cats, they're large, fast not too old ships that are redundant. I'll assume only 2 Admirals have survived leaving Tiger in service as otl. Lion and Princess Royal both went into reserve in 1920 and weren't sold for scrap till December 1922 and January 1924. I see these two ships being rebuilt as carriers instead, possibly with Tiger following at the end of the decade though that's more doubtful.
I'm aware of why the British order of battle was arranged as it was, I'm just unconvinced that the historical presence of the 5th Battle Squadron alongside the main battlecruiser squadrons guarantees that additional battleships built to the standard of the Queen Elizabeth class would have been deployed under the command of Admiral Beatty in an allohistorical Battle of Jutland.
The Battlecruisers find the enemy, while the Fast BBs keep the enemy Battlecruisers at a respectful distance as the main battle line sorts itself out into the best formation to take on the main enemy fleet?
The Battlecruisers find the enemy, while the Fast BBs keep the enemy Battlecruisers at a respectful distance as the main battle line sorts itself out into the best formation to take on the main enemy fleet?
I've always been a huge fan of the QE class Fast Battleships.
Now in our Jutland the RN had 4 of these magnificent ships, who rushed to the aid of the Beaty's Battlecruiers who were taking a pounding from the German Battlecruisers. And they managed to drive them off as i recall.
Now heres a slight change in history. The QE's were built apparantly at old Winston's insistance when he took over the admiralty. So what if he gets in a little quicker, and manages to get a bit more influence on spending.
Heres what I think could have happened.
Upon arriving at the admiralty Winston notices that HMS Tiger has been ordered. He instead cancels it, and when he orders the QE's uses the funds to buy a 5th. He also manages to secure funding for a 6th unit the Agincourt - which in our timeline he did get but was cancelled.
Shortly after this he gets the welcome news that Malaysia has offered to fund the building of a 7th QE. So now Winston's really on a roll. But doesnt want an odd number of ships, as the fleet is arranged in squadrons of 4. With this in mind he contacts the PM, and both of them put influence on Canada to "pull its weight" in Imperial Defence - pointing out HMS Australia, HMS New Zealand and HMS Malaysia. So an 8th unit is ordered, HMS Canada.
Edit: Just read taht the Canadian Naval Aid Bill of 1913 was going to fund 3 QE's. So if Winston and the PM can get the Canadians to go for this, that would give 10 QEs!
Now at this point Winston can't really do anything wrong in the eyes of the Admiralty, so despite wanting a force of slightly slower more traditional batleships for the North Sea, they accept instead his offer of the R class being a slightly improved QE class. So another 8 R class battleships are added.
The effect this has on the RN at Jutland is this.
One less BC in Beaty's Force.
But the Fast Battleships rushing to his aid wont just be 4 ships. If the QE is down for repairs as in our timeline, and lets say another is also down for refit, then th ere would still be 8-10 QE or R's steaming towards the German BC. With at least double the 15 inch guns in action against them, I can see the BC Screen being torn apart. Which would leave the Grand Fleet free to go after the Battlefleet of the HSF without the distraction of the "Death Ride of the Battlecruisers".
And with the vindication of the fast battleship - i could see all the R's being complete as such. So no Repulse and Renown tin clads.