WI R class same speed as QE's

What if the Revenge class battleships where virtual repeats of QE's, same length and power plant and speed with improved armour as historical.
These ships would might have been modernized instead of QE's.
Royal Oak and Revenge serve with 5th battle squadron at Jutland.
 
The Revenge class were meant to be built quickly and cheaply. Making them QE-class 2.0 means that they all miss out on Jutland.
 
Since the Rs that got to Jutland didn't actually achieve much I'm not sure its any problem?
It doesn't change anything regarding WNT/LNT so its not till the rebuilds in the 30s that anything changes at that point rebuilding is probably limited to 3 ships (+1 of R&R) due to needing to keep ships available and cost.
By WWII RN simply has more slightly more useful ships for at lest the first part of the war not sure what scenarios this actually helps, what battles did an R not keep up with the Italians or Germans that a QE could have?
 
I'm not sure that they were meant to be built quickly and cheaply. I thought the Queen Elisabeth's were built to form a fast division and the Revenges were to operate in the battle line in common with the 12" and 13.5" gunned dreadnoughts which accounts for the different designs.

The average building time for the 5 OTL Queen Elisabeths was 31 months. The 3 Revenge class completed before Jutland IOTL were built in an average of 28 months. In the normal scheme of things that's nothing, except that Revenge was completed in March 1915 so she would miss Jutland by a month, while Royal Oak and Royal Sovereign were both completed in May 1915 so they would miss Jutland by 2-3 months. However, I'm sceptical that they would have taken any longer to compete as Queen Elisabeth class battleships ITTL than they did as Revenge class ships ITTL.

Furthermore Royal Sovereign missed Jutland anyway because of machinery problems. Plus there were some spare dreadnoughts that could have taken their places. E.g. the departure from the Grand Fleet of Dreadnought herself might have been delayed by 3 months ITTL.
 
Since the Rs that got to Jutland didn't actually achieve much I'm not sure its any problem?

It doesn't change anything regarding WNT/LNT so its not till the rebuilds in the 30s that anything changes at that point rebuilding is probably limited to 3 ships (+1 of R&R) due to needing to keep ships available and cost.

By WWII RN simply has more slightly more useful ships for at lest the first part of the war not sure what scenarios this actually helps, what battles did an R not keep up with the Italians or Germans that a QE could have?
Actually Revenge fought at Jutland in the First Battle Squadron and Royal Oak was at Jutland in the Fourth Battle Squadron. Royal Sovereign would have if it hadn't been for machinery problems.

However, I think it would not have made an difference to Jutland had they not been there due to the Grand Fleet "only" having 26 dreadnoughts instead of 28 and the Admiralty could have scraped together 2 dreadnoughts to take their places anyway.

OTOH what I think is that they would have been built in the same time as OTL and been assigned to the Fifth Battle Squadron with the other 4 Queen Elisabeth class battleships. That could make a lot of difference in the battlecruiser action.
 
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What if the Revenge class battleships where virtual repeats of QE's, same length and power plant and speed with improved armour as historical.

These ships would might have been modernized instead of QE's.

Royal Oak and Revenge serve with 5th battle squadron at Jutland.
In chronological order a Fifth Battle Squadron with 6 Queen Elisabeth class instead of 4 will change Jutland, but I don't know by how much.

With some jiggery pokery it could be bumped up to 8 Queen Elisabeths. Royal Sovereign missed the battle due to faulty machinery. IIRC Queen Elisabeth herself missed the battle because she was still under repair following a collision with the battlecruiser Australia, which also missed the battle. If the collision hadn't happened Beatty could have had 7 battle cruisers instead of 6 when he met Hipper with 8 fast battleships coming up to support him instead of 4.

IOTL the 5 Queen Elisabeths had refits costing a million Pounds each in the 1920s. AFAIK the Revenges didn't have refits on that scale IOTL but as they were improved Queen Elisabeths they probably have them ITTL.

I think that 3 Queen Elisabeth class would have full modernisations instead of the 3 ALT-Revenges in the 1930s because the latter have thicker armour and as they were completed later their machinery might be in better condition due to having seen a year's less war service. If more money was available it would have been spent on full modernisations for Barham and Repulse instead of the partial ones they received ITTL.
 
It's entirely possible that the improved qe could have been finished faster than the otl R class due to having increases commonality with the previous class.

I wonder if the R class would have been a 4 ship class if they were a repeat of the QE (R class was historically cheaper).
 
Actually Revenge fought at Jutland in the First Battle Squadron and Royal Oak was at Jutland in the Fourth Battle Squadron. Royal Sovereign would have if it hadn't been for machinery problems.

However, I think it would not have made an difference to Jutland had they not been their due to the Grand Fleet "only" having 26 dreadnoughts instead of 28 and the Admiralty could have scraped together 2 dreadnoughts to take their places anyway.

OTOH what I think is that they would have been built in the same time as OTL and been assigned to the Fifth Battle Squadron with the other 4 Queen Elisabeth class battleships. That could make a lot of difference in the battlecruiser action.

Anyway wasn't The Grand Fleet was organised with 5 ships for every 4 ship Division on the principle that one of them would be unavailable as a matter of routine?
 
Anyway wasn't The Grand Fleet was organised with 5 ships for every 4 ship Division on the principle that one of them would be unavailable as a matter of routine?
Haven't the foggiest. It sounds plausible though because the destroyer flotillas were organised into 5 divisions of 4 ships with 4 divisions operational and the fifth refitting.
 
In order of capability IOTL the situation in 1939 was was roughly:
Queen Elisabeth and Valiant fully modernised but with twenty 4.5" DP replacing her 6" battery
Warspite fully modernised, but retaining sixteen 6" plus eight 4" AA guns
Barham partially modernised
Malaya not modernised apart from her AA armament
All 5 Revenge class not modernised apart from their AA armaments and slower than Malaya​

ITTL I think it will be:
Queen Elisabeth and Valliant
Warspite
The 5 ALT-Revenges
Barham
Malaya​

I would put the ALT-Revenges on the same level as Warspite if they had been re-boilered. This might be possible in the 1930s if done as part of their normal long refits. As they were better ships with more potential for modernisation it might be possible to get the money required out of the Cabinet and Treasury. But OTOH using that argument the Admiralty would have got the money to re-boiler Barham, Malaya and Repulse, which AFAIK didn't happen IOTL.
By WWII RN simply has more slightly more useful ships for at lest the first part of the war not sure what scenarios this actually helps, what battles did an R not keep up with the Italians or Germans that a QE could have?
The two that spring to mind are Calabria and the Eastern Fleet of 1942 IOTL.

IOTL Somerville was forced to split the Eastern Fleet into a fast squadron built around Warspite and the aircraft carriers and a slow squadron built around the 4 surviving Revenges. IIRC he sent the Revenges and their escort to Mombassa.

ITTL he will be able to operate them as a single force of the aircraft carriers and 5 battleships with a stronger screen of cruisers and destroyers.
 
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With 8 fast battleships what is the fate of the 3 Battlecruisers after the war are they still needed. All 3 Battlecruisers did valuable work in WWII and I dont think a QE or R could have done those jobs.
 
With 8 fast battleships what is the fate of the 3 Battlecruisers after the war are they still needed. All 3 Battlecruisers did valuable work in WWII and I dont think a QE or R could have done those jobs.
Unlikely for them to be scrapped.
The QE's and Alt R's are fast, but are to slow to keep up with the Japanese Kongo's and the planned Lexington and Amagi classes.
Jellicoe pushed for Hood to be completed.
However the R BC's may have been built as battleships in this TL...interesting
 
The QEs aren't that fast by WWII and the RN knows that the next generation of Battleships are considerable faster than them. The three Battlecruisers still have a role to play until Britain builds some true fast Battleships. You could make a case that they should have built Nelson and Rodney as better protected Hoods and converted Repulse and Renown into carriers instead of Courageous and Glorious. By recycling their turrets as well as using two of the turrets from the follies the improved Admirals would have been built faster too.
 
We had another recent thread on building the 3 Canadian QEs

I suggested that with the Canadian Gov giving money via a passed Canadian Naval Aid bill for 3 additional QEs in an 'HMS Malaya' style gift to the UK that these and the 6th Cancelled unit 'HMS Agincourt' (not the OTL seized Brazilian/Turkish ship) are built instead of the '8' planned revenges which are delayed and Ordered/laid down later and ultimately cancelled at the outbreak of war with Fisher getting permission to restart construction of 3 or 4 as 'quick to build' Renown class BCs in 1915

So no Revenges, 9 QEs and ultimately 3-4 Renown BCs (with 7 QEs available in Mid 1916)

The Admirals are subtly delayed and Hood is less advanced so is cancelled along with her 3 sisters when it is discovered that the Mackensen class ships had been suspended/cancelled along with learnings from Jutland/Jade and instead 4 x 35,000 ton post treaty G3 style Fast Battleships (Also called Admiral Class) are laid down from 1923 but armed with 3 x 3 x 15" guns (the British happy to leverage their hard won knowledge and experience of the 15" Guns in their service) using the saved weight of turret and Gun in the propulsion making them faster than the 2 OTL NELROD's and with far fewer issues.
 
Unlikely for them to be scrapped.
The QE's and Alt R's are fast, but are to slow to keep up with the Japanese Kongo's and the planned Lexington and Amagi classes.
Jellicoe pushed for Hood to be completed.
However the R BC's may have been built as battleships in this TL...interesting

I was thinking when Washington and budget cuts hit in the 1920s the RN mightstruggle to persuade the money people that they need 3 expensive BCs when they have 8 Rs and QEs.
 
I was thinking when Washington and budget cuts hit in the 1920s the RN mightstruggle to persuade the money people that they need 3 expensive BCs when they have 8 Rs and QEs.
But all three are finished by 1920.
They are not going to scrap Hood,she is brand new and the only post war ship they have.
She was finished before the shortcomings of the R's were realised.
As for R&R I was saying they might have been built as modified R BBs, as originally planned.
You could end up with a 26 knot fast battleship with the modified R's
A very useful ship indeed
 
IMHO RN would have been much better off had the R's been built to same standard as QE's.

I see no reason Royal Oak & Revenge could not have been built in time for Jutland, BB build rates were incredible at the time.

The biggest impact faster R's would have had would have been with 5th battle squadron, giving Evan-Thomas 6 fast BB's to support Beatty would have had more of an impact on the battle than R's operating with Grand Fleet.

Post war since the QE's were to be replaced by KGV's I think it likely the R's would have been rebuilt instead of QE's, all 5 rebuilt as R&R aren't around.

WW2 RN BB's able to operated as homogenous 23k squadrons instead of slow squadrons that R's composed historically, giving RN greater flexibility.

Building 5 R's to QE standard may have impacted RN BB building plans as well, build 4 Hoods instead of R&R C,G, and F.

WNT the presence of 4 Hood's would preclude construction of Nelson and Rodney and see replacement standard tonnage set at 40000 tons, a 16" gun ship replacing Tiger 1930.

RN enters ww2 with 10 QE's 4 Hood's a 40000 16" gun ship, the KGV's on the ways. C,G, and F purpose built CV's instead of conversions.
 
Since the Rs that got to Jutland didn't actually achieve much I'm not sure its any problem?
It doesn't change anything regarding WNT/LNT so its not till the rebuilds in the 30s that anything changes at that point rebuilding is probably limited to 3 ships (+1 of R&R) due to needing to keep ships available and cost.
By WWII RN simply has more slightly more useful ships for at lest the first part of the war not sure what scenarios this actually helps, what battles did an R not keep up with the Italians or Germans that a QE could have?

That statement is irrelevant, as it indicates an afterthought. The Royal Sovereign was well designed for its time, though not as advanced as the preceding Queen Elisabeth class, indicating their lesser eniginepower and shorter hull. The uildingprogram of 1913 was explexit in building additional ships as fast as possible to create a margin as big as possible over the Hochseeflotte, just as they had done earlier with the building fo teh first Dreadnoughts and Invincibles.
 
What they did IOTL was:
  • 1912-13 Estimates 5 Queen Elizabeth class ordered originally. One was in an agreement with the Germans who deleted a battleship from their 1912 programme. But the fifth ship was reinstated because the Federated Malay States offered to pay for her as an Imperial gift.
  • 1913-14 Estimates 5 Revenge class
  • 1914-15 Estimates 3 Revenge class and one Queen Elisabeth. All 4 cancelled because it was believed that the war would be over before they could be completed.
  • War Emergency Programme Repulse, Renown, Courageous, Glorious and Furious
What I wished they had done was:
  • 1912-13 Estimates 5 Queen Elizabeth class Mk 1 as OTL
  • 1913-14 Estimates 5 Queen Elisabeth class Mk 2 with the improvements outlined in the OP
  • 1914-15 Estimates 4 Queen Elisabeth class Mk 3 with further detail improvements
  • War Emergency Programme 2 Queen Elisabeth Mk 3 to replace expected war losses and to have 2 full battle squadrons of 15" gunned battleships.
Instead of the OTL Hood class my TTL Hood would have been a design displacing 32,000 tons standard like the American Big Five but armed with eight 15" and probably faster. All 4 ships were completed in the early 1920s.

The TTL WNT allows the British Empire to keep the 4 ALT-Hoods (because they displace less than 35,000 tons) and 16 Queen Elizabeths plus Iron Duke as gunnery training ship and one of her sisters as a disarmed target ship. The 2 Nelson's aren't built. The £15 million spent building them IOTL and the £6 million spent converting the Three Follies into flush deck carriers is instead used to build 3 bespoke aircraft carriers of 22,000 tons and some more County class cruisers.

The 5 OTL Queen Elisabeth class are sacrificed in the TTL 1930 LNT leaving the 4 ALT-Hoods and 11 Queen Elisabeth Mk 1 and 2. Queen Elisabeth herself replaces Iron Duke as gunnery training ship and one of her sisters might replace the existing target ship. IOTL Renown and Malaya received partial modernisations and Renown, Queen Elizabeth, Valiant and Warspite had full modernisations. Unless the Government is persuaded to spend more money there are only 2 partial and 4 full modernisations of the 11 surviving Queen Elisabeth class battleships ITTL.
 
  • 1912-13 Estimates 5 Queen Elizabeth class Mk 1 as OTL
  • 1913-14 Estimates 5 Queen Elisabeth class Mk 2 with the improvements outlined in the OP
  • 1914-15 Estimates 4 Queen Elisabeth class Mk 3 with further detail improvements
  • War Emergency Programme 2 Queen Elisabeth Mk 3 to replace expected war losses and to have 2 full battle squadrons of 15" gunned battleships.
Ok, I can see the extra 9 QEs being planned but there is one large problem with how you see things developing. Jackie Fisher. He wants Battlecruisers and if he's reinstated as First Sea Lord he's going to get them. Your 2 war emergency ships will be built as BCs along the lines of Repulse and Renown. He's also going to push his fixation on a Baltic landing so unless stopped the tin clads are still likely to be ordered, though hopefully can be delayed long enough they can be canceled when he's sacked. That leaves the problem of carriers without Furious to convert. I see Argus being ordered earlier and possibly Hermes and Eagle as well.

WNT carriers without the tin clads? Leaving aside the suggestion of all 4 admirals being completed post Jutland, where do Britain's first true fleet carriers come from? The could and perhaps should be new builds but with the US and Japan being forced to convert incomplete Battlecruisers I can see Britain being coerced into doing conversions. If any of the Admirals are incomplete then they will be converted, however I don't see that as likely. Any incomplete ships will have been scrapped as otl. That leaves the splendid cats, they're large, fast not too old ships that are redundant. I'll assume only 2 Admirals have survived leaving Tiger in service as otl. Lion and Princess Royal both went into reserve in 1920 and weren't sold for scrap till December 1922 and January 1924. I see these two ships being rebuilt as carriers instead, possibly with Tiger following at the end of the decade though that's more doubtful.
 
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