WI: Queen Victoria died before becoming queen?

Anything is possible but I don't see any reason to expect it. William IV was perfectly capable of thinking for himself.

Indeed, George III's sons ranged all over the political spectrum, from ultra-tory (Cumberland) to ultra-liberal (Sussex). Clarence (William IV) was a sensible middle of the roader, probably about the best Hanoverian, and would most likely stay that way.

I'm writing a timeline where this will be of critical importance. Would you be able to give me an overview of the politics of each of George III's children? Here's the list:

George IV
Prince Frederick, Duke of York
William IV
Charlotte, Princess Royal, Queen of Württemberg
Prince Edward, Duke of Kent and Strathearn
Princess Augusta Sophia
Princess Elizabeth, Landgravine of Hesse-Homburg
Ernest Augustus I of Hanover
Prince Augustus Frederick, Duke of Sussex
Prince Adolphus, Duke of Cambridge
Princess Mary, Duchess of Gloucester
Princess Sophia
Princess Amelia

If you could let me know the reasoning for each of them, that would be unbelievably helpful for my timeline.
 
True but Ernest has historical examples in his own country showing what happens when that line is crossed. I doubt anyone would forget what happened to Charles I , Richard II and James II so unless he wants to end up dead or exiled I would guess he would tow the line, but not cross it.

His own father, George III, can also be included. His authoritarian leanings lost a pretty big chunk of the Empire.
 
Really? I thought he went the other way. As a younger man he spoke in favour of slavery, and yet in his later years he signed abolition without protest.


It wasn't abolished until 1833, by which time he had been dead for three years.

The slave trade was abolished during his lifetime, but before he became Regent.
 
In his younger days. Iirc he grew more conservative the nearer he got to the throne.


Yes, just so. In his younger days he played the traditional Hanoverian father-son opposition thing. But once he actually got into a position of power he was Tory all the way. He hated Canning, for example, and was very opposed to Catholic Emancipation. The waters are a little muddied, because his innate cowardice warred with his innate conservatism. York and Cumberland were more conservative, though (Cumberland a LOT more conservative - actually to the point that he was radical, since he would probably have overthrown the Revolution Settlement, if he could).

The Will IV slavery thing is often overstated. He wasn't philosophically a supporter of slavery (really, probably didn't much care). But he did detest and despise the pious prigs who were the evangelists for liberation. And said so. Like Cumberland, William did not really understand the word 'tact'. And, having actually served in the West Indies, which the liberationists had not, he knew the facts at first hand, and knew that a lot of the liberation propaganda was bollocks. Pious bollocks, of course.
 
And, having actually served in the West Indies, which the liberationists had not, he knew the facts at first hand, and knew that a lot of the liberation propaganda was bollocks. Pious bollocks, of course.
I'm sure that being in the West Indies as a member of the Establishment, doubtlessly wined and dined by the planters, gave him a perspective the abolitionists didn't have.;) Just what abolitionist propaganda are you saying was bollocks?
 
For a plentiful sample, consult any of the numbers of the Christian Observer of the period.

Or, if you think the quotation beneath is not indeed bollocks then you are a more forbearing man than I
the dwelling-house of their mistress. She was in bed with a lovely infant. They deliberated upon the means of putting her to death in torment. But in the end one ot them reserved her for his mistress; and they killed her infant with an axe before her face.….
"But horrible as the excesses might have been, which, occasioned these punishments, it must be remembered, that they were committed by ignorant savages, who had been dragged from all they held most dear; whose patience had been exhausted by a cruel and loathsome confinement during their transportation; and whose resentment had been wound up to the highest pitch of fury by the lash of the driver.

Some of what the Duke must have sat through is great humbug indeed. For example :
Thefe infamous Traders, who have heaped up their riches, "the price of blood," and hardened hardened themfelves agaihft their own flefh, will then lift up their eyes in torment, while they fee Jefus afar off, and many of their once infulted, degraded, maimed, and murdered Slaves now happy in his bofom. Then perhaps they may beg that one of thefe may be fent with a drop of water to cool their tongues, becaufe they are tormented in that flame;" but even this requeft will then be denied by the Father of Mercies, for " as they mewed no mercy nor companion on their "poor tlaves and dependents, fb neither fhall their Lord have pity on them."
But this unrighteous traffick in human blood is not more deftru&ive to thofe concerned, in it, than difgraceful to the religion they profefs, and fo the nation which tolerates their crimes. By their means the holy name of Jefus is blafphemed, and an invincible obftacle thrown in the way, to hinder the glorious Gofpel of Chrift from being received by thefe Heathens. Darknefs is not more oppofite fa light than the principles of this traffick to the fpirit of Chriftianity *. That commands us " to preach good tidings unto the meek;" but thefe men deliberately withhold from their Slaves all rational inftruion, and all religious improvement. The Prince of Peace fends us "to bind up "the broken-hearted;" but thefe men bow down their fellow-creatures by oppreffion, and "regard not the cry of the poor deftitute." The fpirit of the Gofpel "proclaims liberty to the captive, and the opening of the prifon to them that are bound:" but thefe men rivet the chains of flavery; the iron enters into the Negro's foul,"

Some of the abolitionist claims were pure hysteria . For instance, that :

Planters forced slaves to lie on their backs in the furrows and ploughed them alive into the soil ;

The oft repeated claims that HMG deliberately fostered wars amongst the Africans so as to increase the supply of slaves (the wars, alas, needed no artificial foment)

Earthquakes and hurricanes , and the resultant death toll, were sent by God to punish the planter salve owners (the same disasters took an even heavier toll of the slaves which would seem to imply a certain illogic on the part of the Almighty as well as the abolitionists)

The innumerable (indeed , near universal) rants about sexual orgies of the planters with Negroes. The dual demons of slavery and sexuality were capable of raising the splenetic piety of the evangelicals to mind boggling heights.


The hum-buggery of the abolitionists was not noticed by Clarence alone. So acute a social observer as Dickens marked it well :
'The fact is, my young friend,' said Mr. Stiggins solemnly, 'he has an obderrate bosom. Oh, my young friend, who else could have resisted the pleading of sixteen of our fairest sisters, and withstood their exhortations to subscribe to our noble society for providing the infant negroes in the West Indies with flannel waistcoats and moral pocket-handkerchiefs?'
'What's a moral pocket-ankercher?' said Sam; 'I never see one o' them articles o' furniter.'
'Those which combine amusement With instruction, my young friend,' replied Mr. Stiggins, 'blending select tales with wood-cuts.'
'Oh, I know,' said Sam; 'them as hangs up in the linen-drapers' shops, with beggars' petitions and all that 'ere upon 'em?'
Mr. Stiggins began a third round of toast, and nodded assent. 'And he wouldn't be persuaded by the ladies, wouldn't he?' said Sam.
'Sat and smoked his pipe, and said the infant negroes were — what did he say the infant negroes were?' said Mrs. Weller.
'Little humbugs,' replied Mr. Stiggins, deeply affected.
'Said the infant negroes were little humbugs,' repeated Mrs. Weller. And they both groaned at the atrocious conduct of the elder Mr. Weller.

Mr Veller, indeed, very concisely summed up the Duke's objections to the abolitionist cant

'Nothin' else,' said Mr. Weller, shaking his head gravely; 'and wot aggrawates me, Samivel, is to see 'em a-wastin' all their time and labour in making clothes for copper-coloured people as don't want 'em, and taking no notice of flesh-coloured Christians as do. If I'd my vay, Samivel, I'd just stick some o' these here lazy shepherds behind a heavy wheelbarrow, and run 'em up and down a fourteen-inch-wide plank all day. That 'ud shake the nonsense out of 'em, if anythin' vould.'

Whilst an admittedly self interested, but informed observer on the other side of the argument noticed his observations :
The Duke of Clarence I believe has been very indefatigable in collecting information on the Subject and knows it better than most Men in the upper House. I do not thing think there are ten Men in either that know the benifitts that accrue to the British from the West India Trade, therefore I have been very anxious to know what the Actual Imports and Exports to every part of the World under their distinct Kingdoms and what was and has been the Imports and Exports to and from the West Indies both the old Islands and the Conquered ones and then it would be seen what a very considerable part of the Trade of Britain depends on the Island [sic] and how much she is benifitted by them.

Simon Taylor

Were I compelled to sit and listen to such hogwash as this :

Invoking thy presence, O Liberty! in whose train attending blessings wait, mistress of science, protectress of social order, and chosen associate of virtue, cover with thy aegis the oppressed of every colour, and of. every clime; may thy votaries be the votaries of truth, and thy temple, encircled by the pure atmosphere of Leaven, uncontaminated by vulgar passions or by vulgar prejudices, annihilate by thy presence the remaining vestiges of oppression, so disgraceful to the escutsheons of this my native land; and blot eternally from the page of her story, the records of tyranny and inhumanity.

I would join with the Duke in exclaiming "the proponents of the abolition are either fanatics or hypocrites, and in one of those classes I rank Mr Wilberforce"

It is perhaps arguable whether the bollocky diatribes of the pious did not actually retard the efforts of the more sensible opponents of slavery in their efforts to put a stop to the practice. There must have been many indeed who though like Mr Weller : Dickens was an acute observer of public sentiment, and contempt for the ranting of the evangelicals may very well have caused the public to unduly discount the undoubted evils of the practice.
 
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From what I remember reading Ernest Augustus was a promoter of the Orange Lodges into the UK and virulently anti-Catholic. If Ireland provides a problem in his reign, he is going to want it annihilated.

That is also without the previous scandal of his life, including en passe involvement with a murder/suicide in his household, and whatever the truth of these things, the newspapers and political society believed (most) of them and already had him lined up in their minds as a hate figure to be violently opposed

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Yes , he was. And, yes, he would

Oddly, Ernst had no problems with the Roman church when he inherited Hanover, and was happy for Roman Catholics to have full rights and equality. His reason , when challenged on the apparent dichotomy, was that Hanover, unlike England and Ireland, had no established national church. Therefore he was under no obligation to support any church or faith and was happy to allow them equal standing. Whereas in England the King was obliged by his coronation oath to support and protect the Church of England (similar for Ireland). And peers were required to condemn the Roman Catholic articles of faith (transubstantiation etc). So in England he had to attack the Roman Catholic church. Because it was his duty.

A strange , but weirdly sort of logical process. Ernst was like that . Very logical, to the point that it took him into grotesquely wrong conclusions.
 
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