WI puppet axis france in WWII

What if instead of accepting the armistice with Vichy france, Hitler had instead forced a peace treaty forcing france to join the axis, but also allowing france to raise a army and airforce and giving the power to Eugene Deloncle? Of course this would lead to the entire french africa defecting to free france earlier, but would this help the axis war effort?
 
At the very least, Britain will probably still take out the French fleet as a preemptive move.
 
The French would probably keep fighting and Germany didn't want that particular headache. Hitler didn't want the French to retreat to North Africa and continue to be a pain, forcing the French to fight against Britain was a surefire way to ensure that France stays in the war albeit in a diminished capacity. Hitler wanted a neutered France so that he could engage Britain relatively safely while using the Vichy French as a means to keep a lid on the population.
 
The French would probably keep fighting and Germany didn't want that particular headache. Hitler didn't want the French to retreat to North Africa and continue to be a pain, forcing the French to fight against Britain was a surefire way to ensure that France stays in the war albeit in a diminished capacity. Hitler wanted a neutered France so that he could engage Britain relatively safely while using the Vichy French as a means to keep a lid on the population.
Actually, Hitler was convinced peace was around the corner and that the British would see reason. By the time he accepted the reality that Britain was not going to quit (around the same time he came to the mistaken conclusion that Britain was holding out in the hopes of a Russian entry), Vichy France was already well established, which meant trying to kick out Petain would see all of the colonies defect.
 

Archibald

Banned
Vichy France was formally established on July 10, 1940 when a handful of (S.O.B) deputies granted full powers to Pétain.
Decision point happened three weeks earlier, on june 16, when Reynaud gave up and the defeatist faction gained the upper hand again those who wanted to keep fighting from Algiers.
Deloncle is an interesting idea - La Cagoule seizing power, something they couldn't do on February6, 1934...
 
Actually, Hitler was convinced peace was around the corner and that the British would see reason. By the time he accepted the reality that Britain was not going to quit (around the same time he came to the mistaken conclusion that Britain was holding out in the hopes of a Russian entry), Vichy France was already well established, which meant trying to kick out Petain would see all of the colonies defect.

Various factions in the UK put out peace feelers - which in May/June gave Hitler the idea that 'peace' was attainable - the RN attack on Mers-el-Kebir - showed him (and the US) that Britain wasn't going to roll-over. Any thoughts of 'peace' after that were just wishful thinking, and one of bewilderment why Britain would fight on. Churchill, was of course holding on waiting for the assistance of the US, rather than the SU!
 
The French would probably keep fighting and Germany didn't want that particular headache. Hitler didn't want the French to retreat to North Africa and continue to be a pain, forcing the French to fight against Britain was a surefire way to ensure that France stays in the war albeit in a diminished capacity. Hitler wanted a neutered France so that he could engage Britain relatively safely while using the Vichy French as a means to keep a lid on the population.

They do keep fighting, the divergence in this TL is that for some reason Hitler believes that UK will not accept a peace treaty, so instead of creating vichy france he pushes for a axis france without caring about the defection of the colonies
 

Deleted member 1487

What if instead of accepting the armistice with Vichy france, Hitler had instead forced a peace treaty forcing france to join the axis, but also allowing france to raise a army and airforce and giving the power to Eugene Deloncle? Of course this would lead to the entire french africa defecting to free france earlier, but would this help the axis war effort?
I raised a similar idea on another forum. The prerequisites for this were basically to start treating France as an ally rather than a conquered nation, which he would not do IOTL. It would mean not taking A-L, not putting major military restrictions on France, not giving them an occupation cost, not requisitioning anything they wanted, not imprisoning/forcing into labor millions of French PoWs, not giving the Mark 1:20 value vs. the Franc, etc. Effectively say "Hey join the war as an ally under German command right now and you face no reprecussions of losing this war" and mean it, while also having them sign on to a customs union and some political control from Berlin. That might be doable, but the real question is whether the French government could get the country to be willing to flip side like that. Resentment against Britain was very high at that moment and the prospect of not having to face a reverse Versailles would be pretty powerful in July 1940, especially after the Mers-el-Kebir attack. If Hitler was willing to do that and piss off all the German military and public then France would probably go for it, I just don't see that happening given that he thought Britain was about to quit the war then he could enslave France. The question is would he be more willing after the failure of the Battle of Britain was lost? Say a Mediterranean Option in 1941 with all the concessions to France to get them onside as an ally? That might be doable for the French at that point, but Germany does seem somewhat weaker and the Nazi party and military would not be happy about giving France a pass when the general consensus of the public was enact revenge for Versailles in terms of a peace treaty; it was far better for German strategic interests to make major concessions to France and turn them into an ally, which would probably be enough to force Britain out of the war (Germany and France allied would mean the Mediterranean is lost to Britain and the Middle East turned into an active front thanks to the French Fleet), but the general attitude of Hitler's political base and the military was to punish France, not make them an ally, even if somewhat a puppet. Even a customs union in the long run would be hugely beneficial to German post-victory, but general Nazi attitudes weren't really known for being pragmatic once the war started.

A Franco-German Axis with Germany as the senior partner would be a powerful combination during and post-war, I just don't see Hitler as the guy willing to do it. Still if it were to happen that would bring the French fleet into the Axis, which when combined with the Italians fleet and German fleet would cause Britain enormous problems. Beyond that Spain would probably join the Axis because of the perception that Britain was now doomed, which means Gibraltar falls. With Gibraltar falling that means the Western Mediterranean is shut off to the Brits, which means Malta falls in 1941 not that much after due to the lack of convoy/club runs to Malta. The the Franco-Italian fleet and merchant shipping would be enough to take Egypt, open up a Syrian Front, take Rhodes, etc. The Mediterranean would fall apart for the Brits and the Middle East becomes an active Front with the Axis having the Mediterranean as a safe shipping highway, while the Brits have to supply from India and around Africa. Bad news for the Brits.
 
he prerequisites for this were basically to start treating France as an ally rather than a conquered nation, which he would not do IOTL. It would mean not taking A-L, not putting major military restrictions on France, not giving them an occupation cost, not requisitioning anything they wanted, not imprisoning/forcing into labor millions of French PoWs, not giving the Mark 1:20 value vs. the Franc, etc

It is not necessary to do all of this, the Op says "Puppet" france, the idea is to have the nazis forcing their conquests in france (elsass lothringen, plus pas de calais region) and creating a weak-partisan filled axis puppet government to weak the french and appease the german public, just like the greek hellenic state, the social republic of italy or axis serbia.
 

Deleted member 1487

It is not necessary to do all of this, the Op says "Puppet" france, the idea is to have the nazis forcing their conquests in france (elsass lothringen, plus pas de calais region) and creating a weak-partisan filled axis puppet government to weak the french and appease the german public, just like the greek hellenic state, the social republic of italy or axis serbia.
Yeah, not going to happen. Vichy France was that puppet state, which is the most you can get. France won't turn on Britain or participate in the war as a German puppet like the SRI at all without major concessions, because there were just too few French willing to side with the Germans and see their country exploited. Some did IOTL, but they were a relative handful and weren't enough to run a puppet state with, let alone field a military.
 
Yeah, not going to happen. Vichy France was that puppet state, which is the most you can get. France won't turn on Britain or participate in the war as a German puppet like the SRI at all without major concessions, because there were just too few French willing to side with the Germans and see their country exploited. Some did IOTL, but they were a relative handful and weren't enough to run a puppet state with, let alone field a military.

I agree with this, the Germans needed to castrate France. The French public would not stand for being forced to fight alongside Germany in any such capacity. You would see a far more active French resistance and I imagine much of the French military would defect the moment it was given the chance and the Germans wouldn't trust the French to do anything but.
 

Deleted member 1487

I agree with this, the Germans needed to castrate France. The French public would not stand for being forced to fight alongside Germany in any such capacity. You would see a far more active French resistance and I imagine much of the French military would defect the moment it was given the chance and the Germans wouldn't trust the French to do anything but.
At very least you'd be guaranteed that the French Fleet would go over to the British and the colonies would go Free French and continue the war.
 
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