WI Ptolemaic Egypt "Survives"

What if Ptolemaic Egypt isn't made into a Roman Province in 30 BC? While the Battle of Actium is a popular PoD, I'm actually thinking of it as a butterfly of a flipped Pharsalus -- in either case, how long does this semi-independent kingdom have, and what are the effects of said delay?
 
Depends. Do the Romans still want to conquer Egypt? Does Rome lose control of the Levant? If the Romans leave Egypt alone (which just seems strange, it is very rich, why wouldn't the Romans won't it?), Egypt has nowhere to expand, therefore if Egypt gets an expansionist Pharoah, it won't survive. So if the POD is Actium, it won't happen. If you can have Rome defeated before it gets to powerful, or give another power like the Antigonids parity with Rome, I don't see why it can't survive, especially if it holds off the Seleucids.
 
It is hard to imagine Rome staying away from Egypt, as mentioned before it was considered fantastically wealthy, and whoever wins the Roman civil war is going to need a lot of money to discharge its soldiers and continue its civil works.

At best it would be subject to heavy tribute.
 
Perhaps we could see a Roman dominance in the government of Ptolemaic Egypt, with Romans doing all but annexing it officially, but I think it's just most likely to fall after the Civil War.
 
Perhaps we could see a Roman dominance in the government of Ptolemaic Egypt, with Romans doing all but annexing it officially, but I think it's just most likely to fall after the Civil War.

Even if that happened, the Romans would annex it eventually. The only client state Rome didn't annex was Armenia, and that was because it see-sawed between Roman and Persian control.
 
Even if that happened, the Romans would annex it eventually. The only client state Rome didn't annex was Armenia, and that was because it see-sawed between Roman and Persian control.

Yes, but the OP was to try and make it survive. In m scenario it survived, in a very nominal way, and only for a time.
 
Yes, but the OP was to try and make it survive. In m scenario it survived, in a very nominal way, and only for a time.

Fair enough, but when I think of "survived", I think of it being a relatively independent nation. Also, if Ptolemaic Egypt was a client state of the Romans, it's not really "Ptolemaic" as such, considering it's not really controlled by the Ptolemies, even if a Ptolemy is on the throne.
 

Eleanor62

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Perhaps we could see a Roman dominance in the government of Ptolemaic Egypt
 
The later Ptolemies even had Roman legions stationed in Alexandria for use by the monarch, IIRC.
It was so called The Gabiniani. In addition to Wikipedia I may add that IIRC the Ptolemies reinforced it with the Roman deserters and different Roman outlaws on the run which made it even more distinctly 'anti-Roman'.
So it was the case when artful Ptolemies used the Roman legion against Rome.

I'm actually thinking of it as a butterfly of a flipped Pharsalus -- in either case, how long does this semi-independent kingdom have, and what are the effects of said delay?
There might be some other PoD. For example alternative consequences of the Battle of Raphia. Let's imagine that Egyptians trained in the Macedonian way somehow became the main support of the dynasty. Not too probable but such things do happen sometimes.
Of course that would make Egypt less hellenized and closer to its historical and cultural roots. Maybe that would lead to the change to the local 'aboriginal' dynasty in Egypt. That'd be nice as most of the later Ptolemies were degenerates.

So the result might be what you wanted - Egypt would get MUCH(!) bigger power base. Instead of a thin layer of the Macedonians/Greeks (2-3% of population) the country would have all male Egyptians ready to die for the glory of great Egypt. They might create a nice Empire and try to survive a little bit longer than in OTL :D
 
Fair enough, but when I think of "survived", I think of it being a relatively independent nation. Also, if Ptolemaic Egypt was a client state of the Romans, it's not really "Ptolemaic" as such, considering it's not really controlled by the Ptolemies, even if a Ptolemy is on the throne.

Actually, I meant for the OP to allow for Egypt as a client state (so long as its outright annexation was at least delayed). Sorry about the confusion :eek:
 
Personally, I think the best scenario for a very long-lasting Ptolemaic Empire is a Carthaginian victory in the Punic Wars. This snips Rome at the bud, but it's impossible for the Carthaginians to pacify enough Italian territory to have the numbers necessary for a strong standing army. Therefore, the Carthaginians pose little military threat to the large Hellenistic Eastern Mediterranean kingdoms, namely the Antigonids, Seleucids and the Ptolemies. If the Ptolemies hold off the Seleucids (actually quite easy IMHO), the can stay independent, and probably take control of Judaea and Arabia Nabatea.
 
Personally, I think the best scenario for a very long-lasting Ptolemaic Empire is a Carthaginian victory in the Punic Wars. This snips Rome at the bud, but it's impossible for the Carthaginians to pacify enough Italian territory to have the numbers necessary for a strong standing army. Therefore, the Carthaginians pose little military threat to the large Hellenistic Eastern Mediterranean kingdoms, namely the Antigonids, Seleucids and the Ptolemies. If the Ptolemies hold off the Seleucids (actually quite easy IMHO), the can stay independent, and probably take control of Judaea and Arabia Nabatea.

The Seleucids were doing well against the Ptolemies until other empires *cough*Rome*cough* interfered, IIRC.
 
The Seleucids were doing well against the Ptolemies until other empires *cough*Rome*cough* interfered, IIRC.

While at the same time steadily losing ground in their eastern territories to the likes of the Parthians or the occasional satrap turned would-be king.
 
I would say that once the Seleucids lose Mesopotamia, they can't really provide a credible threat to the Ptolemies. They would lack a densely populated, agricultural powerbase. Syria just doesn't compare to the Nile Delta.
 
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