How could this happen? Could the initial Reformation make waves from Germany into France? Or maybe a more religiously inclined Napoleon could alter this? What effect would this have on the region and politics if this happened during the original reformation? What about during the French Revolution? This just popped into my head when I was really tired, don't know how plausible it really is.
WI: Protestant France
- Thread starter Cheer
- Start date
Exactly. What if he went a few steps further and broke ties with the Catholic church once and for all? It could be like the English version of Christianity maybe, just like Catholicism but separate from the pope?
longsword14
Banned
The Pope had ceased to have meaningful influence over matters of religion in states. The local authorities matter a lot more. Napoleon was somewhat of a compromise between the conservative sentiment and the revolutionary sentiment. Napoleon tried to keep their influence little and tightly controlled, but outright alienating the church gets him nothing.
I think you misunderstand the revolution. The revolution was secular in nature due to the French Wars of Religions.
Moreover, I don't think you can have a protestant France post-Henry IV: the demographic is not in favour of the protestant, and France started to think of secularism.
To picture it, it was as if the end of the French Wars of Religions made the French realise that they couldn't really go full one way or the other, that they had to allow the other some sort of religious freedom so that France survive as a nation. And even when Louis XIV revocked the Edict of Nantes, this idea remained. Thus, the French Enlightenment was very secular in nature, and the French Revolution is a consequence of it. Moreover, this secularism was not just about freedom of religion, but a rejection of the hold religion (i.e. the Church) had on the public sphere. Post Henry-IV, you can see a large distrust against all religions.
You can trace the cult of reason and many other policies made during the revolution to that distrust.
Thus, I think you should have a POD before the Edict of Nantes to have a protestant France. Napoleon is not going to turn France into a protestant country, he might however have a shot to make France a secular state earlier, though I think it is quite improbable knowing the dynamic behind the law of 1905 of the separation of the State and the Church and its outcome.
No need for Napoléon, many of religious changes were product of long-term trends in France. There are three dimensions of Reformation.
1. theology : Catholicism promotes worship of the saints and the Virgin, belief that salvation can be achieve with acts and divine grace, 7 sacraments during life. During the late 17th and Early 18th c., the Church in France had a very large proportion of jansenists, especially in the upper-class laicity. Jansenism promotes the belief that salvation is achievable with grace only. The popes sought to eliminate jansenism, but the french secular institutions protected the believers. In late 18th c., theism was on the rise, not strictly a protestant movement, but one which promotes direct contact with contact and disregard organized worship.
2. ecclesiology and Church discipline : in Catholicism, the communion with the pope is central, all Church leader must recognize the pope's authority, which is the only true source of episcopal nomination. But, since 1520, Church leaders are in their overall majority named by the King, not the Pope. The Pope only confirmed episcopal nominations. A large part of the Church in France promoted Gallicanism, meaning cherrypicking of the Pope's discipline decisions. For instance, the Jesuit order was abolished in France against the Pope's decision. The Church is divided in regular and secular clergies and the priests cannot marry.
3. land ownership : the Church owned many lands. Most reformation policies tend to suppress regular clergy ownership and transfer their property to lay authority. Since 18th c., a version of this policy is common in "enlightened" catholic country : suppression of regular clergy ownership and transfer to secular clergy, such as the Commission des réguliers in France and the suppression of congregations in Tuscany.
In 1789, all this trends in french Catholic Church were emphasized and put to a higher degree of systematization. The Revolutionaries organized a fully Gallican church, in which regular clergy was suppressed, secular clergy leaders were elected by the believers, secular ownership was transferred to the nation, priests were payed by the State and they had to put the Nation's interest before the Pope's decisions. This Civil constitution of the Clergy did not touch the Catholic theology, who continued to be ruled by the Pope and the Church canons. Anyways, while the Pope may have went with the land ownership transfers, the ecclesiology issues were too much. The centrality of the Pope's authority upon the Church, including bishops' nomination, went first. The priests who accepted the Civil Constitution were excommunicated.
In short, if you want a kind of anglican-style, protestant-lite reformation in France, you just need the Civil Constitution to prevail. OTl, this was one of the causes of the civil War in France, but if there is no external war, maybe the government could succeed, after some decades of religious propaganda and replacing of the existing clergy.
1. theology : Catholicism promotes worship of the saints and the Virgin, belief that salvation can be achieve with acts and divine grace, 7 sacraments during life. During the late 17th and Early 18th c., the Church in France had a very large proportion of jansenists, especially in the upper-class laicity. Jansenism promotes the belief that salvation is achievable with grace only. The popes sought to eliminate jansenism, but the french secular institutions protected the believers. In late 18th c., theism was on the rise, not strictly a protestant movement, but one which promotes direct contact with contact and disregard organized worship.
2. ecclesiology and Church discipline : in Catholicism, the communion with the pope is central, all Church leader must recognize the pope's authority, which is the only true source of episcopal nomination. But, since 1520, Church leaders are in their overall majority named by the King, not the Pope. The Pope only confirmed episcopal nominations. A large part of the Church in France promoted Gallicanism, meaning cherrypicking of the Pope's discipline decisions. For instance, the Jesuit order was abolished in France against the Pope's decision. The Church is divided in regular and secular clergies and the priests cannot marry.
3. land ownership : the Church owned many lands. Most reformation policies tend to suppress regular clergy ownership and transfer their property to lay authority. Since 18th c., a version of this policy is common in "enlightened" catholic country : suppression of regular clergy ownership and transfer to secular clergy, such as the Commission des réguliers in France and the suppression of congregations in Tuscany.
In 1789, all this trends in french Catholic Church were emphasized and put to a higher degree of systematization. The Revolutionaries organized a fully Gallican church, in which regular clergy was suppressed, secular clergy leaders were elected by the believers, secular ownership was transferred to the nation, priests were payed by the State and they had to put the Nation's interest before the Pope's decisions. This Civil constitution of the Clergy did not touch the Catholic theology, who continued to be ruled by the Pope and the Church canons. Anyways, while the Pope may have went with the land ownership transfers, the ecclesiology issues were too much. The centrality of the Pope's authority upon the Church, including bishops' nomination, went first. The priests who accepted the Civil Constitution were excommunicated.
In short, if you want a kind of anglican-style, protestant-lite reformation in France, you just need the Civil Constitution to prevail. OTl, this was one of the causes of the civil War in France, but if there is no external war, maybe the government could succeed, after some decades of religious propaganda and replacing of the existing clergy.
You could have the Pope not have through realpolitik accept the reconversion of Henri IV. While it will keep the French Religion Wars going, this time the Ligue is completely smashed from a military point of view and a Gallican secession would not be out of the picture, if it is made clear that France is not completely cutting ties with the rest of the Catholics.
Otherwise, I don't think France can go fully Calvinist. It suppresses too many holidays for the average worker.
Otherwise, I don't think France can go fully Calvinist. It suppresses too many holidays for the average worker.
There are older threads on the topic, lots of them. The weird netiquette which condemns thread"necroing" makes us rehash it.
In one of these threads, a poster reminded us of the Pragmatic Sanction of Bourges by charles VII in 1438. That was rather close, but expanding that would of course be an early reformation.
At OTL's time of reformation, French kings kinda lacked the reason to go Protestant.
In one of these threads, a poster reminded us of the Pragmatic Sanction of Bourges by charles VII in 1438. That was rather close, but expanding that would of course be an early reformation.
At OTL's time of reformation, French kings kinda lacked the reason to go Protestant.
Control of the Church by the King was enforced by Bourges and later the Bologna concordate in 1520. One thing, other than theological - Francis Ist being quite open to humanists thought even in religion, that could bring Francis Ist to the other side was the monasteries' land. Seizing all these properties could benefit the crown's treasury.
Yeah, I read a few of those old threads first, but I thought it would be good to renew the discussion. But I didn't remember that detail. That's.... very interesting.
Seizing the monasteries and their wealth would indeed be a motive - and all the more for Charles VII a century earlier because he needed every ecu for the war against England. He introduced a lot of royal taxes and got through with it - could he have pulled the other trick, too, or instead?
The only role model available to him, I would say, were the Bohemian Hussites, though.
IMHO, you need a PoD in the early religious wars, at the latest. No placards affair would be a good start. A successful Poissy would be a possibility, for a given value of Protestantism. My favorite would be to have the Guise attempted kidnapping of the child king almost succeed and being publicly exposed (instead of being nipped of in early stages and then hushed up).
I guess you could combine all 3. No Placards-> king less hostile to protestantism -> French Protestant more powerful and moderate -> Poissy is a success and France leans toward Gallican Church -> fanatics on both side reject it furiously and are more secretive -> Guise attempted kidnapping of the child King is less of an open secret -> it goes further along: it is stopped by open fighting in court between Royal guards (with support from Gallican Church supporters) and Fanatic catholics. A link to Rome is found (or manufactured; the Regent has to distance herself from the catholic fanatics who just tried to kidnap her son) -> Catholics are exiled from court and favors are given to Gallicans -> After a couple centuries Protestant (Gallican) France.
I guess you could combine all 3. No Placards-> king less hostile to protestantism -> French Protestant more powerful and moderate -> Poissy is a success and France leans toward Gallican Church -> fanatics on both side reject it furiously and are more secretive -> Guise attempted kidnapping of the child King is less of an open secret -> it goes further along: it is stopped by open fighting in court between Royal guards (with support from Gallican Church supporters) and Fanatic catholics. A link to Rome is found (or manufactured; the Regent has to distance herself from the catholic fanatics who just tried to kidnap her son) -> Catholics are exiled from court and favors are given to Gallicans -> After a couple centuries Protestant (Gallican) France.