WI: Protestant France

I've noticed that "Catholic England" PODs are occasionally discussed on here, but not as much on the other big reformation WI-France becoming Protestant. Firstly, what POD would be required (would Henry IV not converting to Catholicism work, or would something further back be needed), and also what the effects would be (both on European politics/wars, and on the enlightenment-would Voltaire or Rousseau produce substantially different ideas from OTL if they were Huguenots in a Huguenot country?)

EDIT: Just read Rousseau was a Huguenot from Geneva, so he's obviously a bad example:eek:. I do think most of the other French enlightenment philosophers came from Catholic backgrounds, though.
 
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Wolfpaw

Banned
I always sort of got the impression that the "Protestant v. Catholic" issue in France was largely an issue that faced the nobility, not the populace at large, which, IIRC, remained predominantly Catholic. So, whereas the Protestant thing was sort of a grassroots movement in England, in France it was more of a top-down thing that most people weren't okay with.
 
You'd have to get rid of things such as the Concordat of Bologna, etc. that gave the French King significant control over the French Catholic Church. There was no need to become Protestant, because the King already was quite autonomous from Rome.
 
You'd have to get rid of things such as the Concordat of Bologna, etc. that gave the French King significant control over the French Catholic Church. There was no need to become Protestant, because the King already was quite autonomous from Rome.

Indeed. That was what Henry VIII of England wanted as well.
It was closer to the end of his reign and after his death that the more Protestant changes to the English Church happened.
 
The Huguenots, and Henri IV, are Calvinist, a doctrine that makes perfect sense to people who have freedom of travel and assembly, an economy based on trade and using cash, and at least the idea of social mobility, both upward and downward. The Huguenots are the inhabitants of cities, the professionals and wealthy commoners, and a few of the more forward-thinking nobles. It never made much progress among the peasantry (when you're on the bottom and know you're going to stay there, a Church doctrine that says low social station is proof of God's disfavor and therefore of lack of virtue isn't very appealing). At Henri IV's accession, Huguenots represented 10% of the population yet controlled 40% of the total wealth and something absurd like 80% of the liquid assets (cash) - they don't appear to have even tried to convert the poor peasantry. You can let Henri stay Protestant and get a Protestant ruling class over a Catholic peasantry, but for popular conversions you need a new man entirely - a French Luther.

Either path could lead to an interesting *Enlightenment, although I seem to recall that most of the enlightenment thinkers were only nominally religious anyway. I'd have to do a fair bit of research to get good details though.
 
I always thought that Calvinism was a regional thing in France-popular in the south and west, not so much in the north and east. Didn't know there was so much of a class element as well.

In response to Shawn Endressen, I think that if the government of France had become Calvinist, it would have seriously tried to convert all the population, if only to prevent another religious war/uprising.

How close, exactly, did the Protestant side get to winning the Wars of Religion?
 
If wikipedia is right it seems that Gabrielle d'Estrées played a big role in the converting back to catholicism of Henry. So for a pod, they do not meet...

As for consequences, a protestant france, especially a calvinist one, will absolutely influence the dutch 80 year war. Most likely ending it much sooner, with an added result the the United Provinces will get drawn towards france instead of britain.

with the 80 year war ending much earlier, both UP and France could get involved on the protestant side in the german 30 year war.
 
I always thought that Calvinism was a regional thing in France-popular in the south and west, not so much in the north and east. Didn't know there was so much of a class element as well.

In response to Shawn Endressen, I think that if the government of France had become Calvinist, it would have seriously tried to convert all the population, if only to prevent another religious war/uprising.

How close, exactly, did the Protestant side get to winning the Wars of Religion?

Not very close, for most values of "win". They never had the population necessary to field impressive armies; every time a Huguenot uprising gets put down, the economy crashes and the whole nation suffers, but so long as the King doesn't care about that the uprisings will keep getting crushed.

That said, while no one in that era is going to actively endorse a polyconfessional State, without Richelieu I can imagine the nobility concluding that crushing the Huguenots simply isn't worth the bother.

King Henri IV the Heretic may try to convert the entire nation, but it's a slow and awkward process, and he'll start with the nobility (which is 2/3 Catholic, 1/3 Huguenot in 1593). He can close the Roman churches but there's going to be a Catholic Resistance for a long, long time (remember OTL Henri got killed by a monk who didn't think his conversion was sincere enough; the Roman Catholic Church does not roll over and die quietly).
 
King Henri IV the Heretic may try to convert the entire nation, but it's a slow and awkward process, and he'll start with the nobility (which is 2/3 Catholic, 1/3 Huguenot in 1593). He can close the Roman churches but there's going to be a Catholic Resistance for a long, long time (remember OTL Henri got killed by a monk who didn't think his conversion was sincere enough; the Roman Catholic Church does not roll over and die quietly).
Indeed, the Catholic League might be revitalized by the specter of a Huguenot King of France. Even if Henri IV manages to take Paris and crown himself king, he faces greater threats of assassination. Perhaps the CL would conspire to kill Henri and replace him with Charles I of Guise?
 
The Huguenots, and Henri IV, are Calvinist, a doctrine that makes perfect sense to people who have freedom of travel and assembly, an economy based on trade and using cash, and at least the idea of social mobility, both upward and downward. The Huguenots are the inhabitants of cities, the professionals and wealthy commoners, and a few of the more forward-thinking nobles. It never made much progress among the peasantry (when you're on the bottom and know you're going to stay there, a Church doctrine that says low social station is proof of God's disfavor and therefore of lack of virtue isn't very appealing). At Henri IV's accession, Huguenots represented 10% of the population yet controlled 40% of the total wealth and something absurd like 80% of the liquid assets (cash) - they don't appear to have even tried to convert the poor peasantry. You can let Henri stay Protestant and get a Protestant ruling class over a Catholic peasantry, but for popular conversions you need a new man entirely - a French Luther.

Just to clarify, the bolded part was never church doctrine. The notion that money was a sign of God's grace was a somewhat popular belief among the wealthy (naturally), particularly in the Netherlands, but was never something that Calvin preached. He maintained that it was impossible to know for certain who had received God's favor.

Also, the Huguenots certainly tried to convert as many people as they could. You have to keep in mind that Protestantism was illegal, on punishment of death, for most of the 16th century, so Huguenots weren't exactly free to preach wherever they wanted. (Calvin wisely stayed just beyond the borders of the country, in Geneva.) In areas where they had clear military control, such as Béarn and the city of La Rochelle, they converted virtually the entire population.

Part of the reason why Protestantism especially appealed to the wealthier classes was that its emphasis on reading the Bible naturally had more of an effect on the minority of the population that was literature. Also, my understanding is that church synods tended to be conducted in French (Calvin's native language), as opposed to the various regional languages such as Occitan. Outside of the Paris region, French at this time was mainly spoken by the educated classes.

As for how a Protestant France would look, I'd guess it might have its own Edict of Nantes but in reverse, with Catholics allowed certain places of worship. Or it might be like the Dutch Republic, where Catholics were discreetly tolerated. I don't think strict religious uniformity would have been enforced, at least not right away (it wasn't in OTL, even with 90 percent of the population already Catholic).
 
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