WI: Project Orion succeeds

Hi. First post, though I've been a lurker for a while.

I've been fascinated by Project Orion, a proposal for nuclear pulse propulsion from the 1950s. It would've been so much better than chemical rockets, with weight being no object pretty much. Certainly, it would have made space travel much easier and more awesome. Hell, I could have possibly been sitting on the moon or Mars now...as the link says:

"At a time when the U.S. was struggling to put a single man into orbit aboard a modified military rocket, Taylor and Dyson were developing plans for a manned voyage of exploration through much of the solar system. The original Orion design called for 2000 pulse units, far more than enough to attain Earth escape velocity. "Our motto was 'Mars by 1965, Saturn by 1970'", recalls Dyson (30). Orion would have been more akin to the rocket ships of science fiction than to the cramped capsules of Gagarin and Glenn. One hundred and fifty people could have lived aboard in relative comfort; the useful payload would have been measured in thousands of tons (31). Orion would have been built like a battleship, with no need for the excruciating weight-saving measures adopted by chemically-propelled spacecraft. It is unclear how the vehicle would have landed; it is reasonable to assume that specialized chemically-powered craft would have been used for exploration. Taylor may have anticipated that a conventional Space Shuttle-type vehicle would have been available to transport people to and from orbit"

But sadly, the anti-nuclear crowd killed plus of lack of funding had killed it off. But let's say it succeeded. I was thinking the POD would be around 1958: ARPA would take the project under its wing instead of punting it off to the Air Force, who IOTL punted it to NASA, who refused to fund it because of the Apollo program. With ARPA's funding and full support, we could easily see an orbital test in '61 or '62 followed by a manned Mars flyby (possibly orbiter or even lander) in 1965 and a similar mission to Saturn and in 1970. The 1970s could see large-scale bases on the moon and Mars (due to the massive payloads that Orion drives could carry) and by the 2010s there would likely be a manned presence across the Solar System.

Assuming 1958 isn't too late of a POD for a non-ASB scenario, I suppose that would kill the Space Race before it even began. The Soviets aren't going to care about the moon when the Americans have already visited Mars. What effects would that have in the long term? Would the US still have a monopoly on long-range spaceflight? Would the lack of a Space Race allow the Soviets to better concentrate on other projects, and if so, what would they be? Would the environmental movement be strengthened by all the nuclear bombs going off in the atmosphere?
 
This is an idea that's been kicked around a lot. In brief: while Orion might work, and might be a good thing if it worked, it is nowhere near as simple as it seems.

First, despite the widespread impression that this is a "grab some bombs and go" technology, there was still a lot of development left to be done. General Dynamics had yet to move from modeling to designing a functional spacecraft; that's going to take years. And there are still major questions about the feasibility of the technology, particularly relating to pusher plate ablation, misfire recovery, and the degree of focusing attainable by the propulsion bombs. The US conducted at least one nuclear test on something called "Casaba-Howitzer", which was an attempt to turn the Orion propulsion bomb focusing concept into a weapons system; the sources I've found are ambiguous, but it sounds like they achieved significantly less focusing than the Orion planners expected. A less-focused bomb means a less efficient drive - potentially much less efficient. These problems may be resolvable - nobody outside the nuclear weapons complex knows - but it is by no means guaranteed that an Orion drive can even be made to work. And if it can, it will take much, much longer than your proposed timescale - think Moon by 1970, not Mars by 1965. Nor is it guaranteed that it will be as cheap as they claimed after they finish development.

Second, the obstacles to Orion were not the environmental movement, which didn't exist in its modern form at the time. As far as I can tell, the problems with Orion had more to do with: lack of political base within the government compared to rockets; relatively high technological risk; and the Partial Test Ban Treaty. In brief: there are hundreds or thousands of times as many people working on rockets in 1960 as there were working on Orion, and 99% of those people are going to be pushing for rockets, not some completely new propulsion system. There's no guarantee the system will work, and the only way to find out is to spend huge amounts of money and potentially let the Soviets steal a major lead on us using less-risky technology. And the State Department really does not want to renegotiate the Partial Test Ban Treaty - they resisted mightily any efforts to include Project Plowshare in the treaty, and Plowshare had a vastly larger base of support within the government.

Basically, this is all a lot harder than it seems. Even assuming a public commitment to a linear threshold model of radiation carcinogenesis - which you would need, because otherwise Orion is killing people every time it lifts off - it's very difficult to see a path for Orion to succeed, especially on any kind of reasonable timescale.

One place to start - and you would need a lot more than this, but it's a start - would be by bringing the project within the Atomic Energy Commission complex. IOTL, Orion was born at General Dynamics, with the AEC tolerating it but not encouraging it. If instead it's born at, say, Lawrence Livermore - perhaps as one of Edward Teller's brainstorms - then it's going to have a much stronger institutional support base, it's going to have people to fight for it in Washington in a way it didn't have IOTL. I'd suggest starting there.
 

Archibald

Banned
I did wrote a vignette about Orion (see my signature, To infinity and beyond) but I sat on technical and political issues, which would be daunting.

bringing the project within the Atomic Energy Commission complex

There is a path not taken: back in 1958 when both ARPA and NASA were created, there were talks of giving the civilian space program to the AEC.
http://history.nasa.gov/monograph10/nasabrth.html
 
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Then there are questions along the lines of, would it actually work? It seems likely that any problems that would stop it from working could be solved eventually, but we won't know we've solved them until someone makes a full scale article and tests it. Then if we haven't solved them the damn thing crashes spectacularly.

Take the shock plates for instance. The whole idea of Orion being a practical thing comes down to the remarkable fact that there's reason to think a huge steel plate can sit next to a multi-kiloton nuclear explosion and not be vaporized, or rather not even partially vaporized, or melted. But that is apparently related to something on the surface ablating--a layer of oil say--taking the hit for the metal as it were. So not only do we need to fire nuclear charges in just the right place and time, every half second or so, we need to spray the surface of this plate with oil just the right thickness, during the short interval between charges? Or the "solid" shock plate needs to sweat oil somehow, to have zillions of micro passages though which oil seeps at the right rate, passages that are not gradual mashed flat gradually? This plate, in addition to its metal not being ablated away, also is not going to develop metal fatigue, it is not going to develop flaws and suddenly split in half in the middle of a thousand hammer blows to put it into orbit? And either the pulse units will always, without fail, detonate at just the right time, in just the right place, or else we know the plate will not suffer in the least from an off center charge, it won't get stressed or bent? All of this is 100 percent guaranteed, before we build the first model for launch? Or, we have means of full scale testing the plate, for longer, more pulses than an actual launch will take?

Well, sure we do! We set up a static test rig, and set off more bombs than we would for a real launch right here at sea level in the middle of Nevada or someplace like that! Good thing we've decided that worrying about fallout is for wimps, eh? Because such testing is going to generate a lot more of it than an actual launch would. And yet, how can we be confident in the mechanical elements, unless we test them with realistically scaled blasts, that have associated with them the same sorts of radiation we'd be worried could wear the plate and shock absorber and bomb dispenser units in operation? So even if keeping up a blast test schedule with HE would be possible, on full scale, we would not want to substitute it because we need to test everything with neutron and gamma fluxes just as they would be in a real launch.

And even so, the mechanism of transmission of a nuclear chain reaction's energy to a momentum pulse on a plate is different at sea level than way up past the stratosphere. Here on the surface, the bomb makes a fireball which makes a shock wave in air, and it is that striking the plate that gives it a push--meaning we moderate the explosion and engage the mass of the atmosphere to transmit the energy in useful form. But in operation, the plate is vibrating dynamically, and the spacecraft it is pushing is accelerating upward into ever thinner air, air that is also depleted because of the previous blast and the shock wave pattern of the craft cutting through it--how can we simulate these conditions on full scale realistically here on Earth's surface? At the other end of the boost phase, the spacecraft is essentially in vacuum, and the only way the energy of a pulse unit is transmitted usefully to the plate is to include some extra mass in the pulse units that is blasted and bounces off the plate. We can't test those sorts of units down here, the atmosphere is in the way.

The really neat thing about Orion, just ahead of the fact that we can get high thrust with high ISP at the same time for interplanetary trips, is that it enables the instant laughing of thousands, or hundreds of thousands, of tons into orbit using materials that don't mass ten times or more what goes up but in the ballpark of what gets to orbit--or indeed less! We think of a vehicle as something that you put a small fraction of the overall mass of the thing into as fuel, and it goes somewhere useful, and we don't stop and wonder at what point have we poured more gasoline by mass into the tanks than the automobile itself weights. Well, with airplanes we reach that point after just a few full range flights, typically, and I suppose if I did the math I'd find a car's mass is consumed in burnt fuel a few months after it is first purchased. But anyway, during those several flights or several months, quite a lot of "revenue ton miles" get delivered. When we use chemical fuel rockets, on the other hand, we labor to "pile fuel on top of fuel to put a grapefruit into orbit" as I recall one favorable reviewer for Orion being quoted in John McPhee's Curve of Binding Energy. The Shuttle for instance, STS, was, if you look at it the right way, actually more efficient than the Saturn V was, for both put about the same amount of useful material into low Earth Orbit--the Saturn V Lunar Apollo stack would orbit a 45+ ton stack of lunar manned vehicles that would proceed to the Moon, and to boost it there a 15 ton dry upper stage that retained some 60 tons of propellant for that job (after burning up some 40 finalizing the parking orbit first.) This is about 120, maybe 130 tons. And lo, a space shuttle Orbiter also massed about 120 tons on reaching low orbit. (This being no coincidence; Shuttle was evolved from Saturn V tech and designed to meet specs similar to it because these were the stresses and masses the Apollo legacy Saturn V launching pads could handle). But a Saturn V all up on the launch pad massed between 2800 and 2900 tons, whereas every STS ever launched massed within ten tons of exactly 2050 tons! As you can see, then, in terms of putting up X number of tons into a 100 nautical mile high parking orbit, the later tech was more efficient, just as one might hope. (Then unfortunately, the way the better tech was configured, only a sixth or less of the Orbiter mass would be available as payload, the rest being a reusable Space Winnebago. In other threads recently I've shared my notions as to how this diseconomy in terms of cargo mass to orbit per launch might have been addressed--hell, might still be addressed today!--and still get reuse of the expensive but high-performing SSMEs.) But when we compare even a Shuttle reconfigured so that standard 2050 tons can return the SSMEs and still deliver not 15 or 20 but 60 or 80 tons to orbit, to an Orion, which if it could be scaled down to a mere 2000 metric tons, would still deliver at least 500, maybe twice that, as useful payload even factoring its fixed structure which has to be massive, and consider that the Orion architecture is presumably more useful and efficient on much larger scales, on 20,000 or even 200,000 or perhaps even million ton scales, the whole chemical launch industry seems pathetic and silly.

All very fine and good indeed, very attractive. Believe me with all my qualms about it I've still lusted after it.

But
1) there must surely be some fallout release with each launch. I've read the sites of enthusiasts, many of whom are incredibly arrogant in their absolute certainty that this would have worked fine and that only a bloc of weak-willed and wrong liberals stood in the way of a nuclear space paradise, a Utopia usually achieved by nuking the hell out of Russia somewhere along the way, because that would obviously be a better world--in some mentalities apparently anyway. Among the many certainties these people have, they sneer at the fallout. First of all, they say, there won't be any fallout at all, because the vast majority of pulses will be set up way up in the sky and fallout is something they define as what happens when material from the surface gets drawn up into the fireball and gets transmuted there. Not to worry, fallout only happens with ground bursts and the first few pulses we start with, will be above a treated launch surface in the desert, which is already glassed and won't allow fallout--as they define it!--to be produced. So stop whining about fallout, there isn't any, you tree-hugging wimp!

But this is false, if we define fallout more sensibly as "damaging isotopes produced in the process." So-called fusion bombs, if these can even be made small enough to be the appropriate sized charges for an Orion launch, as we have them in modern weapons engineering, are not really primarily fusion devices at all. They are fission bombs that use an intermediate fusion reaction to release a flood of energetic neutrons to trigger a tertiary fission reaction that supplies most (by which I mean, 90 percent or more) of the total blast energy. This is, for one thing, because the lowest-threshold energy fusion reaction that is the one all the bombs are designed to use, deuterium-tritium fusion, must release 80 percent of their net produced energy in the form of these neutrons, due to the fundamental mass balance of the products. We can and have made fusion bombs that omit the third-stage fission, they are called "neutron bombs," and their blast yield per unit mass going in is much much lower than the jacketed normal bombs; they can only be justified as weapons if we want to use the neutrons as killing agents instead of as triggers for the big blast yield. As pulse units for Orion they would be very foolish because the neutrons are useless for generating momentum; all they would accomplish is, per unit of thrust produced, greatly raising the prompt radiation hazard (and transmuting some air) and damage to the pulse plate. It would make more sense to just make the primary fission explosion that is needed to trigger the fusion, leave the fusible material out, and have a simpler, and actually cleaner per useful unit of blast power, pure fission bomb. Now if we want a great big blast, or if we can make a fission-fusion-fission pulse unit small enough to be right-sized for Orion, using the fusion phase as it is generally used in bombs can make sense.

But have no illusions. To get a big nuclear blast, you are always basically using fission, not fusion. And fission reactions by their nature produce a broad spectrum of daughter isotopes, many of which are radioactive. You can't make them "clean." Each pulse, if we could assume near 100 percent efficiency in triggering fission in the uranium, plutonium or perhaps in some designs maybe thorium, would convert all that fissionable metal into daughter isotopes averaging half the atomic mass of the parent isotopes. And a large fraction of these must be isotopes that are known to have pretty nasty effects in the ecosystem and in human beings, and being dispersed into the atmosphere as they must be, they will surely appear in these places eventually. That's what I call fallout, and if the fission process is highly efficient, that's what every bomb blast makes.

Now actually fission bombs are often not so efficient, which by the way is not great news for an Orion program, since you'd be inputting more mass of non-cheap fissionable metals and getting less yield from them. Parent isotope materials that don't get fissioned in the chain reaction will simply be released as they are as so much vaporized meta, that will cool down and also filter into the ecosystem. U-235 is not such great stuff to be breathing and eating with one's meals. Plutonium, I gather, is much much worse, for reasons of its detailed chemical reactions.

Aha, but what if we could trigger fusion reactions--not the tritium-deuterium reactions that are so messy in producing mainly energetic neutrons, but some aneutronic reaction like say Helium-3 in pairs? Well, without qualifying it to be those higher threshold reactions, which are harder to trigger by far, the OTL Orion gang (Freeman Dyson, Ted Taylor, and others) did indeed believe and for this purpose, hope, that alternate ways of triggering rapid and powerful pulses of pure fusion reactions would indeed be on the table and on the shelf within a decade or so. But this is not happening. Not quite yet anyway, not enough to achieve break-even, although a lot of workers claim they are just this close to that point and will get there any year now. They are still working with De-Tri, and with the neutrons absorbing 80 percent of the output. And all the schemes to get these isotopes to fuse without the benefit of a huge fission reaction slamming them together with a huge concentrated surge of energy involve big machines imparting huge concentrated surges of energy on itty bitty packets of fusible material, and hoping to get a big enough tiny fraction of them to fuse, big enough that the useful yield is enough to power the input and sustain the reaction somehow. As it happens, there is a particular line of research, being funded by NASA as a deep-space propulsion system, that involves triggering the fusion by kinetically crushing the material in a much more massive pulse of lithium, a kind of momentum contained and triggered approach. And the lithium is said to be enough to absorb the neutrons, and thus convert their energy into useful heat (and also avoid damaging the surrounding necessary equipment). I have my own notions how this particular reaction might be accelerated in rate enough to perhaps produce a fusion powered rocket of high thrust, in the ISP range of 2000-3000, that might be so high in thrust that despite the generating equipment massing a ten tons or so a rocket with payload in the ballpark of 10 or more tons using this engine might be launched from Earth into orbit. That is not at all the intention of the team developing it, and I might find my notion for accelerating the pulse rate is completely impractical. What we'd get is a lithium rocket, and we would have some fallout as I define it--tritium.

Meanwhile in the sense Ted Taylor and others hoped for, non-fission-triggered fusion never did emerge, and now Taylor said later--Thank God it did not. Because nuclear proliferation is bad enough now, but if there were ways of triggering pulses of fusion in the bomb-blast ranges, we can presume it would be ten-100 times worse.

The higher energy (not in yield, but in threshold to overcome before they go forward) reactions that don't produce neutrons, or not so many of them are that much more difficult to trigger than the neutronic ones. If someone can make a clever electromagnetic gizmo to trigger a fusion reaction, we can be pretty sure it would mainly make neutrons. Perhaps we can jacket them in lithium and thus absorb them into useful thermal form.

Meanwhile the charm of Orion, such as it is, is that we can in theory make it with known, off the shelf tech. This means that whatever sort of exotic nuclear alchemy might be happening in some lab today, and might be put on the shelf tomorrow, for now we must focus on nuclear energy as we know it, which is to say we use the bombs we've got. And those will produce a lot of fallout, make no mistake!

2) Ah, you wimp, the boosters say--once the Orion is up above most of the atmosphere, the bomb products will all be flowing at more than escape velocity and will be blasted away from Earth completely! Stop crying about it!

Well, yes, the point of Orion is to get reactions that are energetic. But this also means, especially blasting them out into a vacuum, that they are charged particles too. Earth has a magnetic field, and we are releasing these high-energy ions inside this field. A fair number of them are going to get trapped in the Van Allen Belts, and others will simply collide with the upper atmosphere and rejoin us that way. In the Van Allen belts, those ions eventually come down at the poles. A good part of it winds up right back here anyway.

And the same applies to interplanetary launches from low Earth orbit too. It does not matter that we are blasting above the atmosphere; again many, maybe all the isotopes will get whipped around and dumped right back into our air.

Orion is dirty, if it works.

We don't know that all the mechanisms we need to work together will do so flawlessly. If they don't, maybe we have a little bobble in the launch sequence but the mission goes on Ok. Or because the glitch does damage something crucial breaks down--the plate starts to crack, or the charge delivery system goes out of whack. And then what we have in progress after that is a crash, a crash delivering all the remaining pulse units right back to Earth's surface. Maybe they vaporize, and we get all that uranium or worse plutonium is mixed into the air. Maybe they are contained nicely and fall to Earth intact. Which is to say, a prize for whichever broker to terrorists can get their hands on them first. Meanwhile, we have a total mission failure.

Even if the components all test well on the ground, we need lots of test flights to verify they work right put together and operated in graduations from sea level to vacuum. None of this work has been completed. It is not reasonable to be certain it works without these tests. And we know if it does work, it will make something of a mess. Against that of course we can put huge tonnage into orbit.

But there are other possible way to get megatons and gigaton of payloads into orbit, that don't contaminate the air with Uranium or worse.
 
One of the things that always bothered me about the concept was the security implications of manufacturing thousands of small, easily portable nuclear warheads. Even assuming the manufacturing agency has perfect security and not a single one goes walkabout, what would the other nations of the world think if one country starts mass-producing suitcase bombs "for the space programme"?
 
The fallout may or may not be a problem. It comes down to your assumptions about how radiation works.

Assuming you're launching from the middle of nowhere - which you bloody well better be - then you're talking about a very small radiation dose spread out over billions of people. On the orders of thousandths of a milliSievert per person. Under the modern radiation carcinogenesis model, called Linear No-Threshold (LNT), the risk of radiation-induced cancer is approximately equal to:

(Dose in mSv / 100 mSv) %

So, if the dose is one thousandth of an mSv, the individual risk is one in ten million. BUT, six billion people are exposed. So, total casualties are six billion / ten million = 600 cancer cases, of whom about half will die. Not good.

But, we don't actually know that radiation doses at these levels will cause cancer. We have pretty good data on radiation and cancer at dose levels of 100 mSv and up, by studying the victims of the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings. Below 100 mSv, though, an increase in cancer incidence is impossible to pick out of the background fluctuations. This leads to the hypothesis, called Linear Threshold (LT), that there's some threshold dose, below which radiation is harmless - some level of exposure at which the body can repair the damage without difficulty. The threshold depends on who you ask, but it's typically somewhere between 10 mSv and 50 mSv - much higher than the radiation dose caused by an Orion launch. So, under the LT hypothesis, Orion will kill no one.

Orion was developed at a time when LT was the default model. The change to LNT did not happen because of improvements in the science - the fact is, we still genuinely have no idea which one is right, and there's really no way to tell. The change happened for political reasons. In the real world, that was a good thing - better safe than sorry - but for the purposes of alternate history, I think we can assume that LT is correct. And if LT is correct, then Orion is not a radiation pollution threat to anyone outside of the immediate vicinity of its launch site.

Now, that said, even if LT is the right model - and it really might be! - proving it in 1960 is basically impossible. We still can't say today, with 50 years of advances in biology. You need to both a) convince the health physics community that LT is probably right, and b) convince the public to trust the health physics community when they say that. Both tall orders...
 
Now, that said, even if LT is the right model - and it really might be! - proving it in 1960 is basically impossible. We still can't say today, with 50 years of advances in biology. You need to both a) convince the health physics community that LT is probably right, and b) convince the public to trust the health physics community when they say that. Both tall orders...

It would probably be easier if radiation hormesis gained traction early enough, ideally before the atomic bomb is actually dropped. German pharmacologist Hugo Schulz first described such a phenomenon in 1888 following his own observations that the growth of yeast could be stimulated by small doses of poisons. Radiation hormesis (also called radiation homeostasis) applies expands this inital expermiment with the hypothesis that low doses of ionizing radiation (within the region of and just above natural background levels) are beneficial, stimulating the activation of repair mechanisms that protect against disease, that are not activated in absence of ionizing radiation. The reserve repair mechanisms are hypothesized to be sufficiently effective when stimulated as to not only cancel the detrimental effects of ionizing radiation but also inhibit disease not related to radiation exposure (see hormesis). The term "hormesis" was coined and used for the first time in a scientific paper by C.M. Southam and J. Ehrlich in 1943 in the journal: Phytopathology, volume 33, pp. 517–541.

The following experiment should be possible with the resources of the 1930s if anybody in the field, such as Hermann Jospeh Müller had found inspiration by Schulz work. Obviously they won't understand the genetics, but the concept that a certain amount of radiation stress can be good might help against the perception of radiation as bad under all circumstances. At least it gives scientists proof that the question is more gray than black and white.

Weak doses of radiation prolong life of female flies, scientists find
These findings could reveal the genes that enable the prolongation of life and in the future lead to the creation of a means to stall aging in humans
Date:
August 21, 2015
Source:
Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology
Summary:
Scientists have revealed that weak doses of gamma radiation prolong the life of drosophila flies (fruit flies), and that the effect is stronger in females than in males. These findings could reveal the genes that enable the prolongation of life and in the future lead to the creation of a means to prevent aging in humans.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150821125323.htm
 
Assuming 1958 isn't too late of a POD for a non-ASB scenario, I suppose that would kill the Space Race before it even began. The Soviets aren't going to care about the moon when the Americans have already visited Mars. What effects would that have in the long term? Would the US still have a monopoly on long-range spaceflight? Would the lack of a Space Race allow the Soviets to better concentrate on other projects, and if so, what would they be? Would the environmental movement be strengthened by all the nuclear bombs going off in the atmosphere?

If the US working on launching nuclear battleships into orbit, the Soviets are sure as sin going to work on it too.

Whoever gets one up first has won a MAJOR victory in the Cold War if not won it outright (depends just how well the concept can be made to work).

And the other side being about to launch one (whether they are saying publicly "oh, it's going to Mars, honest!" or not) is grounds to go to a war footing - potentially an orion is a devastating weapon, and it would be very difficult to differentiate between a battleship and a Mars ship.

And all of this was, along with the technical risks others have mentioned and the fact that launching one of these would burn out every satellite within line of sight (and there's no way to get an orion up before both sides have billions of dollars invested in orbital assets) a big reason why the orion was not pursued.

It is a big, expensive, dangerous and very risky technical project. (And by risky, I mean "you may spend 10s of billions of dollars on this for a decade and come up with squat". By contrast, when orion was cancelled, they KNEW that nuclear thermal propulsion and chemical rockets could be built and if they were given the resources, they could make whatever the Pentagon wanted.)

As a comparison, I'd draw a parallel with rockets - like the orion, rockets are theoretically extremely simple. However, real world rockets are among the most complex single machines made by mankind. Similarly, to get the simple fundamentals of an orion to work, you need to do some very complex things, half of which we don't yet know about because we've not yet subjected steel to repeated nuclear hammer blows in a short time.

The materials science end of developing an orion is going to be really hard.

Also, I can't help but feel that preparing an orion for launch would be a real pain. The thing is fueled by thousands of small, dangerous and very complex devices, each of which needs proper handling, loading and quality control. The pre launch inspections are going to be hell.

And I'm a nuclear optimist who tends to think it's unlikely that the fallout issue would be nearly as bad as the orion scare stories would have us believe...

fasquardon
 
So what would it look like to have a world where Orion is a thing. How would our presence in space look like? Would fall out even in the worst case scenario be worse then the chemicals released from industry?
 
I suspect this one is probably a solvable problem.

Well, you could make it so all of the satellites are made with hardened electronics and Faraday cages around them.

That would add some weight.

So what would it look like to have a world where Orion is a thing. How would our presence in space look like? Would fall out even in the worst case scenario be worse then the chemicals released from industry?

It would very much depend on how often it such things flew.

fasquardon
 
Well, you could make it so all of the satellites are made with hardened electronics and Faraday cages around them.

That would add some weight.

Everybody has STARFISH PRIME in mind when they talk about this, but that was a couple of megatons, and an Orion pulse propulsion unit will be a kiloton or less, depending on design. You're setting off thousands of those little bombs, but if we set them off in the right places, we can minimize the damage.

As I understand it, the primary damage mechanisms for satellites from STARFISH PRIME were charged particles created by the explosions that ended up essentially in orbit around Earth, and possibly EMP created by the Compton effect from nuclear X-rays interacting with electrons in the upper atmosphere. Charged particle production should be linearly proportional to yield, and the Compton effect should be linear or superlinear. I'm not sure, but I would hope that you could find regions in space where the charged particles from Orion thrusting will disperse rather than gathering into belts - basically, do as much as possible of your thrusting in your initial ascent out of the atmosphere and then once you're past LEO, and as little in LEO as possible. This is basically guesswork, but it appears plausible to me.

And of course, in a world with Orion launches, maybe adding some weight to satellites isn't actually a big deal.
 
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marathag

Banned
The whole idea of Orion being a practical thing comes down to the remarkable fact that there's reason to think a huge steel plate can sit next to a multi-kiloton nuclear explosion and not be vaporized, or rather not even partially vaporized, or melted.

Well, 'Jumbo' with 14" thick walls was at Ground Zero under the tower when Gadget went off
Jumbo%20suspended%20in%20tower%20and%20ready%20for%20lowering%20to%20its%20foundation.jpg


Trinity_-_Jumbo_after_test.jpg
 
Another possible objection to Orion, that I hear raised very often when I point to alternatives along the lines of developing Loftstrom Loops or more ambitious extensions of that concept, is that you make a huge investment, and then get a huge return--but it only makes sense to point out that you got the huge return at pennies cost on the megabuck versus chemical rockets if in fact you do want to use the huge return. In other words, if it were the burning ambition of humanity to start expanding out into space as much and as soon as possible, Orion would mainly be questioned just on the questions of whether it will work at all, and whether it will damage life on Earth too much. Given that everybody and their sisters all want to go out into space the right answer to question 1 is, "dunno, let's try to make it and see!" and to question 2--well, first of all, a lot of people here seem to agree it wouldn't be too bad, and if there is harm perhaps space travel will make us all so rich we can fix it, and when push comes to shove, the final answer will be "yeah, but we don't care--get over it, loser!" A variation on this theme would be, what if the human species had credible warning that Earth is doomed to be destroyed, or so devastated it won't be habitable, at a certain date well in the future, but within the lifetimes of people now living--then we'd be looking for the fastest ride off the planet.

People say the same things about Loftstrom loops too. "How do you know you can make it work?" Well, gosh, let's do some experimenting and scale modeling and find out, shall we? "Nobody wants access to space on the scale at which the huge investment in a full scale Loop would pay off." A weighty matter, since I certainly don't have several tens of billions of dollars burning a hole in my pocket I can contribute.

I'd say that unlike Orion, there is little question that if a dynamic structure along the lines more or less of a Loftstrom loop can be made to work, that it can be designed and placed so as to pose very little hazard to very few people, and those people are only in potential danger, and steps can be taken to mitigate that further and compensate. It costs a lot of money but it doesn't have to cost any blood of any disinterested third party innocent bystanders in addition. If small enough doses of the cocktail of radioisotopes even the cleanest possible Orion launch will be below a real threshold of measurable harm, well and good. But if it is proven the other way--that every launch most certainly will cause 300 people around the world to suffer and die from a cancer they otherwise would not have had--well, necessity may be necessity, but suppose there was another way to reach your goal that did not kill those people, ought one not prefer that? And if we don't know which is the case, and the alternative exists, should we not develop the alternative just because we know it is less potentially harmful?

Anyway we face what looks to me like a chicken and egg problem. "You can't prove that actually hundreds of millions of people would visit space, and millions would emigrate there permanently, and the world will benefit tremendously from a massive space rush--therefore it is only logical to take the position that the demand does not exist!" We hardly know what the demand would be if we could lower the cost of putting objects into space by a couple orders of magnitude, with prospects of further large reductions if the demand rises to meet that supply.

Orion I suppose had the advantage that it was something that 1960 era engineers had some reason to think they could actually do. There is a world of difference between sketching out the basic concept and actually realizing it in working materials. Let me say for the record that having raised some doubts, I don't actually suppose there is anything unsolvable about the basic concept. It can almost certainly work. For some sort of dynamic structure along the lines of a Loftstrom launch loop to work requires similar chutzpah in somewhat different (though not unrelated) fields. Where Orion postulates that we can build a plate and shock absorber system that won't crack or otherwise fail under a thousand sequential kiloton range blasts, and that we can place those successive blasts in a timely manner at a precise location within a very narrow time slot, and rely on each one exploding properly with the right magnitude of blast, a Launch Loop requires that we control the trajectories of billions of little whizzing masses so that they run along very narrow evacuated channels under active electromagnetic control, and that we can not only carry out this juggling act flawlessly but even accommodate perturbations in the basic trajectory pattern that will allow for cargo launch sleds electromagnetically suspended to be accelerated and levitated, and that we can launch thousands of substantial payloads every day without ever having an incident where a single link in the chain happens to brush up against the containment sheath. The latter task seems more doable in this age of microelectronics evolved so many orders of magnitude in speed and memory buffer sizes than it may have in the late 1970s. But when I pose the challenge rhetorically, it does sound amazingly demanding! The launch loop might already be an option today, if someone wanted it, it could never have been made workable in the 1960s.

I can accept that a few Orion launches, some dozens or so, might be a pretty minor instance of pollution. The worry would come in mainly if we get used to making and using the things, and then what is a dozen launches one generation becomes a hundred the next and a thousand after that. Even if it is true there is a threshold, and ten or 50 launches is below that threshold, someday the rate of launches would exceed the threshold and then we'd be in an era where each launch is without doubt causing human mortality--and by the time we get to where it is clear this is so, the ecosystem as a whole will be pretty saturated with toxic products of previous launches.

So if we had some TL where humanity bursts into the Solar system on pioneering fission pulses, I would hope that sooner or later the wisdom to curtail these cuts in--but by then the demand for some efficient means of putting stuff into orbit is plain, and the wealth to develop means of gratifying that demand is at hand, and so alternatives such as launch loops are developed in due time, and nuclear pulse drives reserved for the space beyond Luna's orbit.

But to come back to how we would plausibly have such a TL--well, someone has to want a lot of tonnage in space, fast. Realistically if Orion would work well, it seems unlikely to be ready to launch until the 1970s. Thus we'd not have accelerated the schedule of first human on the Moon by waiting for it. The first Orion ships would not be around to address the Cuban missile crisis, nor to resolve Vietnam with threats of annihilation. By the time the first one could launch, Soviet ICBM capability would be such as to brig the nuclear balance of terror to the tight level of more or less assured annihilation of all civilization. It almost might not matter if we had a fleet of five or ten nuclear missile Death Stars in distant Earth orbit. Indeed I actually think there is some elegance in the Air Force's proposal to base the deterrent, or part of it anyway, in deep space where a retaliatory strike would take many hours, perhaps days, to fall toward their distant targets. It means no enemy can manage a first strike (not anyway without a lot of internal sabotage) against this retaliatory fleet of monitors, not without disclosing their intentions and the origins of the attacking vehicles hours or days before they could reach their targets; vice versa the US response could afford to take time to verify actual strikes on the USA, to receive and digest orders coming from the chain of command on Earth, to be very measured and certain in their response. Vice versa also, the destabilizing threat that the USA might launch a first strike on the Soviet Union might remain, due to traditional Earth based assets in fact developed OTL, but the deep space bastion would not pose such a threat; anything launched from it would be observable for a very long time before it neared its target. The USA, if it wished to adopt a policy of no first strike, could abolish its planetary based ICBMs, open the USA up to accredited Soviet inspectors with the freedom to enter any facility and see for themselves what goes on there, open the skies to aircraft surveillance, and generally fall back exclusively on the deep space force. Then it would be possible for the US to strike at the USSR with surprise only if it were possible for agents to smuggle bombs in and hide them.

I doubt very much we'd do that, but the deep space bastion at any rate would be a stabilizing rather than destabilizing factor. A surprise attack on the USA could not touch that bastion; if the Soviets were to simultaneously launch Orions of their own blasting up to the bastion to menace it, it would still be some hours before they could arrive, and the bastion could launch all its missiles in a devastating strike at the Soviet empire before its own Orion fleet can arrive to trade blows with the US installation that will have already accomplished its mission and can now concentrate on this duel in high orbit. The Soviets could ruin the USA but not without facing sure and effective retaliation.

So perhaps if it is Cold War imperatives gone mad that causes Orion to be developed it might not be the catastrophe one fears. It might actually lead to detente; after all the Soviets too could establish their own distant space bastions of space based weapons, which also would benefit from distant separation from any other thing. It could indeed lead, if not to total abolition of other nuclear weapons systems that do threaten first strikes and the like, a considerable reduction in their numbers and adoption of command and control systems that can afford to err on the side of caution instead of paranoia.

Given a TL that is not too distant from our own in the mid-50s, I would doubt Orion could be started much earlier than the late 1950s, and would not be ready for deployment of such a deep space "fleet" until the late 60s at the earliest. More likely the mid-70s. In this scenario, I can't see anything but military purposes funding the early development. It may well be that the military authorities responsible for launching it would also be given the mission of space exploration, in the long tradition that military forces often do have that task. Given that the priority is to develop a military capability, I don't think there will be any subterfuge along the lines of an ostensibly peaceful and civil Lunar or Mars expedition leading the way and attempting to cloak the military agenda. No, the test program would be frankly military, probably USAF--with Orions, the Navy might want to renew its case to have the responsibility since Orion pulse-driven big ships would more closely resemble Navy than Air Force patterns of operation.

Consider that even if Orion is efficient enough to put most of its launch mass into orbit instead of burning up 90 percent or more as propellant, getting one of these things to land back on Earth is a pretty insane sort of task. Pulse nukes can be used to arrest orbital velocity but can such a ship back down toward Earth's surface on a reversed launch sequence? Going up, the rocket is zooming ahead if the fireballs, going down--it descends into air that is already blast-disturbed! Insofar as fallout in my sense of the daughter isotopes of efficient fission reactions is indeed problematically concentrated in the immediate vicinity of the fire path, going down into it may be much more hazardous to the ship that leaving a trail of them behind. If we can "back down," I suppose the limit would be the height at which the next pulse unit would greatly heat up the surface. From there on down it would be necessary to use chemical rocket thrust to land it; this would use up maybe 5-10 percent of the mass. Do we want to try to figure out how to do this, doubling the number of nuclear pulse powered transits versus launching alone, or do we declare that once a mass is put up by Orion, it stays up or comes down piecemeal in little ablative capsule landers? If so, then if we launch a nuclear battle station with its crew, that crew is stranded there on a tour until a second launcher of some kind or other can bring a relief crew and more supplies up, and perhaps bring the landing vehicles the old crew will use to get home. Presumably this second launcher is another Orion, albeit perhaps a much smaller one, and it too can never come down again. Even if we just start with a military program only to put up and man such space bastions, we will start to accumulate mass permanently in orbit or beyond even after the complete deployment of all planned battle stations is accomplished. Thus, starting a program, however limited in intentions, that launches stuff into space on Orions is to start a commitment to a large and ever expanding presence in space.

OTOH I think humanity as a whole will start to object strongly to the health of everyone on Earth being put at risk solely for the strategic security of the USA alone. If the Soviets are tacitly granted the same privilege to do what they like with Orion launchers too, their objects may fall silent, but those of most of the world that does not have the immediate capability to follow in these footsteps would not be mollified, on the contrary facing an exponential escalation of the Cold War into infinite space above them, their objections would be all the stronger.

Pressure would be on to try and think of some other way to put a comparable flow of mass into space up there without using nuclear explosion to do it.
 
If small enough doses of the cocktail of radioisotopes even the cleanest possible Orion launch will be below a real threshold of measurable harm, well and good. But if it is proven the other way--that every launch most certainly will cause 300 people around the world to suffer and die from a cancer they otherwise would not have had--well, necessity may be necessity, but suppose there was another way to reach your goal that did not kill those people, ought one not prefer that? And if we don't know which is the case, and the alternative exists, should we not develop the alternative just because we know it is less potentially harmful?

Absolutely. This is (part of) why I am 100% opposed to any attempt to resurrect Orion in real life (not that anyone's trying to). In the real world, I'm a fan of reuseable rockets (ala Falcon IX) and, eventually, laser propulsion. But, for a story, I think it's okay to just make the assumption that LT is correct - and, as you point out below, Orion is something that could conceivably have been built in the 1960s, whereas a Lofstroom loop or a laser launcher could not have been.

Anyway we face what looks to me like a chicken and egg problem. "You can't prove that actually hundreds of millions of people would visit space, and millions would emigrate there permanently, and the world will benefit tremendously from a massive space rush--therefore it is only logical to take the position that the demand does not exist!" We hardly know what the demand would be if we could lower the cost of putting objects into space by a couple orders of magnitude, with prospects of further large reductions if the demand rises to meet that supply.

This is very, very true.
 
I've realized a serious problem with the Air Force deep space nuclear bastion concept--space radiation and zero-g adaptation for the crews.

A close-in "bastion" in low Earth orbit (practically defined by saying "under the Van Allen belts") would be too close and destabilizing. Enemies might attempt to take them out with fast launches (suborbital, straight up like sounding rockets--it takes a lot less delta-V to put something 400 km up than to reach orbit there) and reaction times would be well under a minute; similarly the bases might launch a lighting attack with even shorter reaction times. Very very destabilizing!

The genius of the 1960 circa USAF concept was to put the bastion way way up, at geosynch or higher, which even if we assume the enemy has fast Orions of their own, buys at least a half hour reaction time minimum. (They might have giant laser batteries in pop-up sounding rocket trajectory installations instead, but it would take a hell of a big laser attack to disable a 50,000 ton bastion quickly!) Since the missiles they'd launch in retaliation would not be mounted on 4-g thrusting Orions but basically free-falling, the retaliation wave would take many hours to reach Earth, but that's OK, the damn things are pretty much unstoppable. (OTOH, with suitable design, they might have abort options to veer to a return orbit to be recovered, should the enemy negotiate a cease-fire).

So the point is to put the batteries very high up, a good fraction of the way out to the Moon. This can put them above the outer Van Allen belt, which is some help. But basically, in radiation terms, this puts them outside the effective protection of Earth's magnetic field, they are in an interplanetary radiation environment. Sheltering against solar flares is not a big problem, but galactic cosmic rays are going to steadily fry them. This is worse because Orion design philosophy says "make it robust, make it heavy!"--in 1960 engineering terms this means "make it out of steel!" Heavy metals are the worst sort of anti-GCR shielding; they produce lots of secondary radiation. A 2010s design might rely on lots of composites and light metal, and be much better. But not an option if design is frozen say in 1965.

Crews who have stints of a year or more are going to suffer.

Even if the battleships are bloody huge, 50,000 tons or more, I think it would be feasible to dock them to each other in pairs and suspend them hundreds of meters apart on strong steel cables, and spin the assembly for up to a full G, so the crew won't suffer zero G adaptation. But this merely compounds the problem of effective radiation shielding! I envision a third module, assembled from parts of each battleship, in the middle for the crew to train in microgravity, since in operations they'd cut loose from the gravity arrangement and scatter, so in an actual war they'd be floating around between boost periods. Perhaps this module can include very tight sleeping quarters shielded by water or something to cut down on total GCR exposure. But that would have them zero-G adapting half the time...

The hell of it is that the USAF has absolutely no data about any of these hazards that we have now. By the time they are ready to launch the first models, NASA may be able to tell them more, assuming Gemini and Apollo go forward (as I think they would, money be damned! this is the 1960s!) But the design needs to freeze long before it comes in. They either have to be gung-ho and let the crews suffer for it, or overcautious. The latter may be a good option considering the lift capability. Still, orbiting enough water to protect even a small crew of a dozen or so will eat badly into their margins.

I'm assuming the Air Force concept is by far the most realistic route to operational Orions, and that they do work.
 
Absolutely. This is (part of) why I am 100% opposed to any attempt to resurrect Orion in real life (not that anyone's trying to). In the real world, I'm a fan of reuseable rockets (ala Falcon IX) and, eventually, laser propulsion. But, for a story, I think it's okay to just make the assumption that LT is correct - and, as you point out below, Orion is something that could conceivably have been built in the 1960s, whereas a Lofstroom loop or a laser launcher could not have been.

Love to see you expound someday on practical laser launchers! I dislike Loftstrom loops in that I think they can only be really practical for strictly equatorial launches; other approaches with free range of launch azimuths, such as spinning tethers and so forth, look inherently better--I actually think the ultimate solution is that concept where you have counterrotating streams of cowled masses in a band right around the Earth, creating in effect "infinitely" rigid hoops with elevator tethers in effect anchoring them--basically a Loftstrom loop with no endpoints! Two sets; one anchored to the surface and turning with the Earth, forming elevated linear accelerator trains in the sky, linking to a "stationary" set above that, meshing at the equator, giving access to more useful orbits--plane of the ecliptic and some high inclination options.

I find it very hard to believe any rocket system can approach the economics of large scale non-rocket launch systems. But of course these require really grandiose investments, whereas better rockets are incremental.
 
Love to see you expound someday on practical laser launchers! I dislike Loftstrom loops in that I think they can only be really practical for strictly equatorial launches; other approaches with free range of launch azimuths, such as spinning tethers and so forth, look inherently better--I actually think the ultimate solution is that concept where you have counterrotating streams of cowled masses in a band right around the Earth, creating in effect "infinitely" rigid hoops with elevator tethers in effect anchoring them--basically a Loftstrom loop with no endpoints! Two sets; one anchored to the surface and turning with the Earth, forming elevated linear accelerator trains in the sky, linking to a "stationary" set above that, meshing at the equator, giving access to more useful orbits--plane of the ecliptic and some high inclination options.

I don't really know enough about non-nuclear launch systems to expound on them, but laser launchers seem like the option that's most likely to eventually be workable. Not any time soon, but eventually. It doesn't require the insane upfront investment of a space elevator (or the implausible materials), it doesn't have the safety issues of dynamic structures, or the G force problems of railguns.

I find it very hard to believe any rocket system can approach the economics of large scale non-rocket launch systems. But of course these require really grandiose investments, whereas better rockets are incremental.

Yeah, I doubt that a truly space-based future can ever be possible using chemical rockets for Earth launch. But any kind of non-rocket space access is a very long time away, and in the meantime, improved, reusable rockets will let us both do a lot of really cool stuff and develop the technologies we'll need when truly cheap space access becomes available
 

marathag

Banned
One of the things that always bothered me about the concept was the security implications of manufacturing thousands of small, easily portable nuclear warheads. Even assuming the manufacturing agency has perfect security and not a single one goes walkabout, what would the other nations of the world think if one country starts mass-producing suitcase bombs "for the space programme"?

They didn't complain about the Davy Crockett

Detailed_M29.jpg
 
They didn't complain about the Davy Crockett

Fair point. Wiki says about 2100 of those were made, and Atomic Rockets shows about 200 needed per Orion launch, with the pulse modules being around the same yield, so you could get ten launches per Crockett Equivalent Protest Unit, or say 4-5 major interplanetary missions (taking Earth Orbit as "halfway to anywhere").
 
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