WI: Portuguese court captured or killed on their way to Brazil?

What would have been the ramifications for both Portugal and Brazil if the fleet was attacked by French ships, and the royal court was either sunk or captured?
 
What would have been the ramifications for both Portugal and Brazil if the fleet was attacked by French ships, and the royal court was either sunk or captured?

Let's see...

The Portuguese convoy was well escorted by the British Royal Navy and I doubt the French could pull off something like that. Assuming they did...

I'd say Brazil is going to follow a similar path to OTL Hispanic America. They may respect the central viceregal authority at first but I bet some Brazilian provinces will eventually secede.
Additionally - Brazil as a whole and Rio de Janeiro in particular - will not benefit from the cultural and economical boost that came along with the status of headquartering the Portuguese Empire for more than a decade.

As to Portugal, eventually Portuguese and British troops will liberate it more or less as per OTL. If the royal family is just captured, well... they'll just return when Napoleon is defeated.
If the entire fleet is sunk than that's a bitch. Not only do the Braganças die out but also most of their Portuguese relatives like the Cadavals die too.
The Cortes will have to find a way to (s)elect a suitable prince to the throne. No republic for now, of course...
 
Let's see...

The Portuguese convoy was well escorted by the British Royal Navy and I doubt the French could pull off something like that. Assuming they did...

I'd say Brazil is going to follow a similar path to OTL Hispanic America. They may respect the central viceregal authority at first but I bet some Brazilian provinces will eventually secede.
Additionally - Brazil as a whole and Rio de Janeiro in particular - will not benefit from the cultural and economical boost that came along with the status of headquartering the Portuguese Empire for more than a decade.

As to Portugal, eventually Portuguese and British troops will liberate it more or less as per OTL. If the royal family is just captured, well... they'll just return when Napoleon is defeated.
If the entire fleet is sunk than that's a bitch. Not only do the Braganças die out but also most of their Portuguese relatives like the Cadavals die too.
The Cortes will have to find a way to (s)elect a suitable prince to the throne. No republic for now, of course...
The choice would probably fall on a minor sub-branch of a cadet branch of the Braganças.:)
 

Vitruvius

Donor
I'd say Brazil is going to follow a similar path to OTL Hispanic America. They may respect the central viceregal authority at first but I bet some Brazilian provinces will eventually secede.

As to Portugal, eventually Portuguese and British troops will liberate it more or less as per OTL. If the royal family is just captured, well... they'll just return when Napoleon is defeated.
If the entire fleet is sunk than that's a bitch. Not only do the Braganças die out but also most of their Portuguese relatives like the Cadavals die too.
The Cortes will have to find a way to (s)elect a suitable prince to the throne. No republic for now, of course...

I agree. Though if the family is captured and Brazil goes the way of it's Spanish neighbors in South America then Pedro will become King of Portugal so potentially that means no Liberal War and no Miguelistas. It also means there's a good chance of the Braganzas perpetuating their rule in Portugal. So both Brazil, as an independent Republic, and Portugal, as a stable monarchy, would be much changed.

The 'Napoleonic King Ralph' thread reviews the claimants if the family dies in a storm or battle at sea. In that case I don't see a King being selected until after Portugal is liberated. At that point the House of Savoy is out (not enough male candidates) so it's either a Spanish Bourbon (or someone from Bourbon Two-Sicilies or Bourbon-Parma) or the Duke of Frias and Escalona. I'm starting to think that Duke Bernardino Fernández de Velasco might actually make a decent candidate since he's moderate, a former pro-French pro-Bonaparte that defected to the resistance during the Peninsular War and later became a moderate liberal in Spain. So maybe King Bernardo I of Portugal. Not sure what house that would be, Velasco or Pacheco are likely names.
 
The Portuguese royals fled on a Royal Navy fleet. They fled at a time when the French practically had no operating fleet, because they'd lost virtually every ship that was at Trafalgar and all the other ones were mothballed in port, unable to resist the British blockading them in. The Portuguese royals could've swam the Atlantic and they'd still never have seen an enemy ship.
 
The Portuguese royals fled on a Royal Navy fleet. They fled at a time when the French practically had no operating fleet, because they'd lost virtually every ship that was at Trafalgar and all the other ones were mothballed in port, unable to resist the British blockading them in. The Portuguese royals could've swam the Atlantic and they'd still never have seen an enemy ship.

For the sake of this exercise, we could imagine that instead of being sunk by the French they could have caught a massive storm.
 
The choice would probably fall on a minor sub-branch of a cadet branch of the Braganças.:)

The junior branches of the Braganças (the Cadavals and the Lafões) were all on board! :D
With the legitimate descendents of King João IV dead, the only ones that can claim to have all-legitimate all-Portuguese connection to Portuguese royalty are those descending from Infanta D. Isabel (1459-1521). The Cadavals headed this branch but ITTL they're dead. A large part of the high nobility was on board and it would be a hard exercise to find someone that descendend from Infanta D. Isabel that wasn't! There must certainly be somebody but... what a mess.:p
 
The Portuguese royals fled on a Royal Navy fleet. They fled at a time when the French practically had no operating fleet, because they'd lost virtually every ship that was at Trafalgar and all the other ones were mothballed in port, unable to resist the British blockading them in. The Portuguese royals could've swam the Atlantic and they'd still never have seen an enemy ship.

Do you think the Portuguese would have risked it had the French Navy still been operating? If so, that could be our POD.
 
Do you think the Portuguese would have risked it had the French Navy still been operating? If so, that could be our POD.

Yes they probably would have, but the French still would unlikely have the Atlantic strength to risk taking on such a RN fleet. When the French fleet was intact it spent most of its time in port, waiting for the right time to break free and facilitate an invasion of England.
 
The junior branches of the Braganças (the Cadavals and the Lafões) were all on board! :D
With the legitimate descendents of King João IV dead, the only ones that can claim to have all-legitimate all-Portuguese connection to Portuguese royalty are those descending from Infanta D. Isabel (1459-1521). The Cadavals headed this branch but ITTL they're dead. A large part of the high nobility was on board and it would be a hard exercise to find someone that descendend from Infanta D. Isabel that wasn't! There must certainly be somebody but... what a mess.:p

As far as I know the only descendents of the Dukes of Lafões in 1807 were two young girls (the daughters of João Carlos de Bragança e Ligne de Sousa Tavares Mascarenhas da Silva). And I can't find their names in the list of passengers of the fleet: http://www.serqueira.com.br/mapas/cortebr-anexo.doc
 
As far as I know the only descendents of the Dukes of Lafões in 1807 were two young girls (the daughters of João Carlos de Bragança e Ligne de Sousa Tavares Mascarenhas da Silva). And I can't find their names in the list of passengers of the fleet: http://www.serqueira.com.br/mapas/cortebr-anexo.doc


You're right, thanks for the source. The one that was on board was actually the 3rd Duke of Lafões-to-be (Segismundo/Sigismundo, son of the Duke of Cadaval). He'll later marry the 3rd Duchess of Lafões on her own right.

The Braganças would be extinct in the male line, BTW.

Let's see who'd be the "rightful" heir (from the line of Infanta D. Isabel):
After the Cadavals, we have the Marquis of Marialva. He was actually sent to France to greet Napoleon IOTL. :)
He died childless and his rights would pass to his niece: none other than the 3rd Duchess of Lafões.
 
OK, let's say in this scenario - how likely would it be for a Portuguese Republic to come about? One which is not allied to Napoléon but retains its alliance with the UK, obviously.
 
Probably not at all, if you add the "allied to Britain, not France" caveat. Britain would use their troops to restore the Portuguese monarchy if anything happened to them.
 
The junior branches of the Braganças (the Cadavals and the Lafões) were all on board! :D
With the legitimate descendents of King João IV dead, the only ones that can claim to have all-legitimate all-Portuguese connection to Portuguese royalty are those descending from Infanta D. Isabel (1459-1521). The Cadavals headed this branch but ITTL they're dead. A large part of the high nobility was on board and it would be a hard exercise to find someone that descendend from Infanta D. Isabel that wasn't! There must certainly be somebody but... what a mess.:p
You said it right.:p I lost some time trying to find legitimate male descendants of early Braganças, and couldn't find them.

Another chance would be descendants through female lines, like the Portuguese D. José Luis de Castro, 2nd count of Resende*, or the Spanish
Luis Joaquin Fernández de Córdoba, 14th duke of Medinaceli, or also,
Joaquin Fernandez de Cordoba, 6th duke of Arion.

* He was living retired in Lisbon, after being the Viceroy of Brasil from 1790 to 1801.

As far as I know the only descendents of the Dukes of Lafões in 1807 were two young girls (the daughters of João Carlos de Bragança e Ligne de Sousa Tavares Mascarenhas da Silva). And I can't find their names in the list of passengers of the fleet: http://www.serqueira.com.br/mapas/cortebr-anexo.doc
Uau! Great source!:cool:
 
OK, let's say in this scenario - how likely would it be for a Portuguese Republic to come about? One which is not allied to Napoléon but retains its alliance with the UK, obviously.
Regarding Portugal, It would be difficult to have a Republic in that period. Republican support was minimal.
The only way I could see during that period is if there was no suitable candidate for the throne, and foreign extreme circumstances forced some kind of compromise.
 
Last edited:
It would be difficult to have a Republic in that period. Republican support was minimal.
The only way I could see during that period is if there was no suitable candidate for the throne, and foreign extreme circumstances forced some kind of compromise.

Without the 'Imperial Period' to transition in a good, democratic system (respect for civil liberties, legislative framework, etc etc) into Brazil I can expect that a Republic before the Empire would be messy, alot more like what happened in the Spanish American republics.
 
Without the 'Imperial Period' to transition in a good, democratic system (respect for civil liberties, legislative framework, etc etc) into Brazil I can expect that a Republic before the Empire would be messy, alot more like what happened in the Spanish American republics.

Or rather - Brazil would be divided into different countries.
 
Top