WI: Portugal settled in La Plata / Argentina

There were various interpretations of the Treaty line, for instance in 1537 Pedro Nunes' maps claimed everything East of Paraguay River, and as late as 1688, maps were issued with a very liberal interpretation of the line. In 1535 when it was rumoured that King João III to the Rio de la Plata, the Spanish Ambassador, Luis Sarmiento de Mendoza informed King Carlos V that the Portuguese were claiming the region and that was the reason for the establishment of Buenos Aires. The Portuguese king protested this, claiming that the region belonged to Portugal.

Once the silver mines were discovered in Upper Peru in 1546, the temptation for settlers from Southern Brazil to engage in illegal trade in the Rio de la Plata became great. Portugal began to claim the rights to lands based on Uti possidetis, by settlement and conquest. This was finally agreed to in the Treaty of Madrid in 1750.

The map below is from 1574.
tratado-tordesilhas.jpg
 

Lusitania

Donor
But the thing is, the Portuguese did ignore the Treaty in OTL and founded settlements in Brazil outside of it and ‘justified’ it by drawing the map of These settlements to be on the right side of the line by extending the land on the map when it wasn’t so in reality.

Not to mention Spain ignored the Treaty by way of the Philippines.

The Treaty was a guideline more than a rule.
But that was only allowed after the Iberian Union when the treaty no longer applied. Starts in 1580
 
But that was only allowed after the Iberian Union when the treaty no longer applied. Starts in 1580

Even before that the line wasn’t strictly enforced. Besides Spain is so busy with the rest of the Americas that they’re not going to give a damn about Argentina, a remote part of the world where their initial settlement failed.

And if they do, it will be around the time Philip is trying to make his claim to Portugual over whoever ITTL the Cardinal King names as his heir so Portugal isn’t likely to care about the Treaty anyway.
 
The Colonia do Sacramento was founded only in 1680, way past the time period mentioned by the OP, just like most of the expansion past the line of Tordesillas.

True but all it takes is some fudging of the maps and Portugual can claim it. Spain more or less didn’t hold them to it than extensively because they cared more about Peru and Mexico.
 

Lusitania

Donor
True but all it takes is some fudging of the maps and Portugual can claim it. Spain more or less didn’t hold them to it than extensively because they cared more about Peru and Mexico.
Yes and no, the Spanish were always claiming the Portuguese were overstepping their Brazilian boundaries.
 
Yes and no, the Spanish were always claiming the Portuguese were overstepping their Brazilian boundaries.

Spain never did much about it.

Also the Spanish began claiming the Philippines in the 1520s and settled it in 1560s. 20 years before the Iberian Union.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Spain never did much about it.

Also the Spanish began claiming the Philippines in the 1520s and settled it in 1560s. 20 years before the Iberian Union.
Yes by Portugal and Spain paying a huge amount of money. The treaty was demanded by Spain to include their control of Philippines and new world except Brazil.

I think that you misunderstand the willingness of the Portuguese to live within the treaty limits. It provided Portuguese possessions in Africa and Asia protection plus granted Portuguese peace on the Iberian peninsula. The Portuguese needed that so that they not need to guard themselves to attack by their stronger and more powerful neighbor.

So the Portuguese government will not antogonize the Spanish and will not back any captain who wished to establish a colony there so with the risk so no one will invest in an enterprise that could be seized by Spain.

So while Spain did not prioritize the rio de la plata region in the 16th century all was needed is the Portuguese to show them it can be done for them to demand Portugal turn it over to them.

For your scenario to work what is needed is for the Portuguese and Spanish sign a different treaty with more territory to Portugal. Like all lands along the Atlantic south of Amazon river then we have a chance.
 
For your scenario to work what is needed is for the Portuguese and Spanish sign a different treaty with more territory to Portugal. Like all lands along the Atlantic south of Amazon river then we have a chance.

That would be a nice POD but they would need to know of the Amazon’s existence prior to the Treaty. Maybe earlier Portuguese discovery of Brazil combined with a later Treaty date
 

Lusitania

Donor
That would be a nice POD but they would need to know of the Amazon’s existence prior to the Treaty. Maybe earlier Portuguese discovery of Brazil combined with a later Treaty date
I was thinking of renegotiations so the Spanish get Philippines and Portuguese get East Indies and Atlantic coast. Plus Portugal agrees to pay the same amount itbpsid to Spain.
 
I was thinking of renegotiations so the Spanish get Philippines and Portuguese get East Indies and Atlantic coast. Plus Portugal agrees to pay the same amount itbpsid to Spain.
I was wondering about how this. Surely an agreement can be reached through an exchange of territories in their respective zones of influence? Maybe if Spain isn't content with the Philippines, the Portuguese could give up their trade with Japan for a colony in Argentina.
 

Lusitania

Donor
I was wondering about how this. Surely an agreement can be reached through an exchange of territories in their respective zones of influence? Maybe if Spain isn't content with the Philippines, the Portuguese could give up their trade with Japan for a colony in Argentina.
No the initial reason the Spanish needed and colonized Philippines was to have a basecto trade with China. The original treaty only covered the line of control in new world. Later on they also setup one in the Far East. So at one of those renegotiations the Portuguese ask for all land south of Amazon with Spain receiving right of passage to get to Pacific Ocean along straight of Magellan
 
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