WI: Pope Martin Luther?

i think luther could have one, since he didn't support taxing the nobility through the church. He would be elected just so they could save money
 
I'm surprised at all the awesome and tantalizing ideas coming out of this concept. I'm willing to work on this, but I need two things:

1. A collaborator with enough interest and knowledge about the subject to help continue it on through the next few centuries. I have some ideas, but this needs to be fleshed out with an "expert" so-to-speak.

2. Your opinion. I may post a poll about whether or not this Pop Martin VI idea should be the focus of the TL or whether it needs to be the set-up/background to another, cause-and-effect TL. Thoughts?
 
I'd lean towards #2, defined as Pope Martin Luther is part of something that isn't just about specifically "what if Luther was Pope?" but is part of how the changes that make him Pope also mean changes that add up to differences elsewhere in Europe (as well as the changes FROM Pope Martin making things different than OTL).

A Europe where Luther becomes Pope is a Europe which may see very different elements through out the whole of "Christendom" rising vs. OTL, not simply enough reformist cardinals.
 
I'd lean towards #2, defined as Pope Martin Luther is part of something that isn't just about specifically "what if Luther was Pope?" but is part of how the changes that make him Pope also mean changes that add up to differences elsewhere in Europe (as well as the changes FROM Pope Martin making things different than OTL).

A Europe where Luther becomes Pope is a Europe which may see very different elements through out the whole of "Christendom" rising vs. OTL, not simply enough reformist cardinals.

I'm lost as to what Christian Europe looks like without a successful split of the religion, AND with a reformist Pope as a shining example.
 
I'm lost as to what Christian Europe looks like without a successful split of the religion, AND with a reformist Pope as a shining example.

A second successful split.

Making the point that its not as if Medieval Europe was monolithic, so imagine instead of Rome vs. Constantinople we have....

Counter Reformation Total Defeat.
 
If Luther managed to keep his ideas for himself while advancing to Church hierarchy then he has a chance to be elected... If somehow he starts to spread all these ideas for reform while a Bishop or a Cardinal then he will ruin every chance he has... College of Cardinals didnt liked reformists or austere characters at that point... And that was one of the many reasons why Bessario lost the 1455 papal election, his austerity and passion for reform cost him the throne...

But the fun part would have to be if Luther is indeed elected Pope and then starts his reforming programme. I can see a new Western Schism coming and a rival Pope set up in France or Spain...
 
I worry that Luther is too radical a firebrand to be elected. But if you want a reformist, why not just keep Adrian alive?
 
If Luther not only doesn't split off but also become pope, there's a real chance more radical folks like Calvin could still split.
 
As I suggested earlier, make the PoD the Papal Conclave of 1492. As Martin is a child around this time, you can make subtle adjustments to his personality without totally losing who he was OTL. You lose Alexander VI, Julius II and some of the other corrupt Popes which makes reform easier.
 
As I suggested earlier, make the PoD the Papal Conclave of 1492. As Martin is a child around this time, you can make subtle adjustments to his personality without totally losing who he was OTL. You lose Alexander VI, Julius II and some of the other corrupt Popes which makes reform easier.

Corruption was rampant at that time... So i tend to believe that 1492 Conclave would be unalterable since Rodrigo Borja wanted the throne so badly that he would even bribe the Holy Ghost too if he could in order to achieve election.
The only way to alter the 1492 conclave result is to eliminate somehow Rodrigo Borja, but even then there were other Cardinals who would seek election through simony like Cardinal Sforza...
 
If Luther not only doesn't split off but also become pope, there's a real chance more radical folks like Calvin could still split.
+1000000

Making Luther Pope is not that difficult - all you need is the HRE to be the dominant force in Papal politics rather than the Italians. Then Luther convinces the Emperor that a church working with the secular authorities is a better bet than a church set above them.

The problem is that for Luther to win, devout old style catholics must lose and he would still face the pre-determinism debate with Calvin et al.

Short of a Lutheran inquisition which would make the Thirty Years War look like a minor skirmish I can't see schism in the faith being avoided
 
+1000000

Making Luther Pope is not that difficult - all you need is the HRE to be the dominant force in Papal politics rather than the Italians. Then Luther convinces the Emperor that a church working with the secular authorities is a better bet than a church set above them.

The problem is that for Luther to win, devout old style catholics must lose and he would still face the pre-determinism debate with Calvin et al.

Short of a Lutheran inquisition which would make the Thirty Years War look like a minor skirmish I can't see schism in the faith being avoided

I've been wondering what the effect of Emperor Philip I (Charles V's father, who by predeceasing his father Maximilian I did not become emperor) would be on the Reformation, and it looks like with his humanistic bent Luther could likely be closer to the church hierarchy and gain Imperial support rather than a cold shoulder.
 
I've been wondering what the effect of Emperor Philip I (Charles V's father, who by predeceasing his father Maximilian I did not become emperor) would be on the Reformation, and it looks like with his humanistic bent Luther could likely be closer to the church hierarchy and gain Imperial support rather than a cold shoulder.

Personally, I am always a bit leery of equating humanistic with Catholic. Were the patrons of the Italian renaissance crypto-protestants?

Making Luther Pope is not that difficult - all you need is the HRE to be the dominant force in Papal politics rather than the Italians. Then Luther convinces the Emperor that a church working with the secular authorities is a better bet than a church set above them.

Of course, the Empire had this issue in the past; the investiture controversy. I'm not sure how Luther would feel about reviving it. :D
 
Personally, I am always a bit leery of equating humanistic with Catholic. Were the patrons of the Italian renaissance crypto-protestants?

Not really; but I get the impression that Philip could have been more open to reform. Granted, if geopolitical concerns end up similar to OTL regardless then Philip would shoot down reform if it meant weakening the Imperial relation with the Papacy.
 
Personally, I am always a bit leery of equating humanistic with Catholic. Were the patrons of the Italian renaissance crypto-protestants?



Of course, the Empire had this issue in the past; the investiture controversy. I'm not sure how Luther would feel about reviving it. :D

Humanistic is a problematical description - arguably Luther was a humanist as was Erasmus but so I would say was Ignatius of Loyola. Humanism = challenge not always change towards the established church.

As for the investiture issue - Luther was a pragmatist first and foremost and looked to Frederick III and later Phillip of Hesse for secular support. I can't imagine that the form of a coronation would exercise him too much, after all he had much more important arguments to resolves such as the precise nature of the Eucharist :D
 
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