In OTL, the Polish King Wladyslaw IV came up with a plan for a war against Turkey over the west coast of the Black Sea. The Senate voted the war down. Such a war would have involved battle ready Cossacks in plunder of Turkish lands and perhaps unified the Commonwealth against an external enemy. Could the Poles-Lithuanians-Cossacks have marched as far south as Bulgaria? Some Polish magnates did have dreams of a Crusade to liberate Constantinople...
WI Polish liberation of Black Sea coast?
- Thread starter Polish Eagle
- Start date
From what I've read, Poles have never had much of a crusading spirit because of their experience with the Teutonic knights.
While I doubt Varna could ever succeed in anything concrete, since the Ottomans were definitely on the upswing by this point, it would be interesting if Wladislav didn't charge like an idiot at the Ottoman center and get himself killed. That way, Hungary could maybe also join the union of Poland and Lithuania.
Maybe Constatinople survives longer with more Polish-Hungarian aid?
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
This is the early 17th century. Hungary doesn't exist anymore and Constantinople fell a long time ago.
OOPS
I was thinking of Wladislav III, who did invade all the way to Varna in a crusade... but that was centuries before.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Yeah, I'm agreeing with what's already been said.
-Why would this happen? What has changed the attitude of the Szlachta?
-Why do the Turks just curl up and die? In the 17th century, it was the Ottomans who were getting the better of Poland in their confrontations.
-How is it "liberation" to impose Christian Polish-Cossack rule on the Muslim people of the Crimea? Hell, even the Orthodox Bulgarians are unlikely to welcome the "liberators", let alone the population of the large towns which was, in the 17th century, mostly Muslim, I believe.
Susano
Banned
Thats not true. Admittedly, the Kingdom of Hungary were merely the borderlands to Austria anymore, but more importantly it gave the Habsburgs the claim on Hungary they later, err, activated.
I Blame Communism
Banned
The point is that since it's basically a Hapsburg title and their rule in Slovakia, Poland is no position to go uniting with it.
Susano
Banned
Yeah, that was I meant with that, too. And Polish-Austrian relationship really wasnt bad, theres no reason for Poland to antagonise Austria.
Now it seems to me that Poland couldnt focus on the Ottomans because it had too many other enemies. So, if somehow both Sweden and Russia at the same time are eliminated as a power for a decade or two I guess it could work, but I have no idea how to achieve that.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
Concerning Russo-Turco-Polish-Swedish relations in the 17th century you have 5 possibilities:
(1) Russia and Turkey vs Poland-Lithuania and Sweden.
(2) Russia and P-L vs Turkey and Sweden. Best possible combination for the Poles since their enemies are unlikely to link up.
(3) Russia and Sweden vs Turkey and P-L. You can't have your war.
(4) Russia, Turkey and Sweden vs P-L. Worst possible combination for the Poles.
(5) Russia vs Turkey, P-L and Sweden. You can't have your war.
I Blame Communism
Banned
Thing is, in the Great Turkish War we had Russia and P-L and Austria against the Ottomans all on their lonesome. The Ottomans pretty conclusively lost... and Poland did not come within miles of the Black Sea. It was too busy retaking the Podolian highlands, which is had lost in the last war. That's right, Poland went to war with the Ottomans not to go off on crusade and "liberate" the Balkans, but to get back a part of western Ukraine.
Seriously, people, Turkey was a serious power at this point. People couldn't just waltz up to it an take what they wanted when the alliances aligned correctly.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
We're talking early 17th century here, before the losses to Turkey and Russia. And I never said they'd wipe the floor with the Ottomans, just that they'd have the better odds.
I Blame Communism
Banned
True, but the OP seems to assume a floorwipe. Anyway, it appears to me that although the Deluge was responsible for the chaotic situation in Ukraine, the failure to organise a proper military effort against the Ottomans was the first sign that the Polish constitution was failing, and one can't pin it all on the Deluge.