With the POD of AD 1000 Is it possible to make Poland as one of the Constituent Kingdoms of the Holy Roman Empire and King of Poland as one of the titles of the Holy Roman Emperors, would this result in a Grossdutchland?
WI:'Polish-German-Italian Commonwealth'/Holy Roman Empire
- Thread starter kasumigenx
- Start date
wolf_brother
Banned
Hell, if we're going to wank a massive Space-Filing Central European empire, why not just combine the historical PLC with the HRE, then throw in the Hapsburgs other lands (Hungary, Croatia, etc), plus all the lands claimed by those various empires IOTL.
With a POD of 1000 I'm sure just about anything is possible, its so far you have plenty of time to play with. Do you have something specific in mind or just asking in general?
With a POD of 1000 I'm sure just about anything is possible, its so far you have plenty of time to play with. Do you have something specific in mind or just asking in general?
Yeah, I have a scenario about this a Habsburg Poland-HRE union, I am just asking for another POD aside from this.
Both of those were part of the HRE before events happened with the Dutch breaking loose.
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Perhaps Otto III is at least partially successful? It was his dream to create universalist HRE, with Poland, Germany, Italy and France. I have my doubt about France, but let's say Otto doesn't die early, but manages to keep Italy and Germany under his rule, with Poland as close ally. After Boleslaus I's death there is a civil war in Poland between Mieszko II and Bezprym and Otto intervenes eventually becoming also a king of Poland. His son, Otto IV has titles of Holy Roman Emperor, king of Germany, Italy and Poland. He crushes any internal opposition, making HRE a union of (initially) 3 kingdoms.
Personally I do not think it very plausible, but assuming Otto III gets smarter and has a very talented son, it is at least theoretically possible.
Personally I do not think it very plausible, but assuming Otto III gets smarter and has a very talented son, it is at least theoretically possible.
I think he could divide Poland internally among the heirs of Boleslaw, Premyslids and the sons of Mieszko I from his second wife as electorate Duchies.
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Originally posted by kasumigenx
Yes, he could, but what for? And why include Przemyslids at all? And I'm not sure when exactly only selected German princes became only electors in the HRE (I know it happened in XIIth century, butthewhen the process started?)
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The HRE was more of a title at that point than a real power. The Poles also had good friends in the Vatican, and in 999 the Pope created an independent Polish church after Boleslaw received graciously a Chatholic missionary Adalbertus who went to evangelize in Prussia. When the man was killed, Boleslaw bought his body and laid the remains in Gniesno Cathedral, which pleased the Pope greatly. Otto III was a friend of the Pope and made a pilgrimage to Gniesno in the year 1000. They had such a good time that Otto III invited Boleslaw to Aix-la-Chapelle, where they prayed at Charlemagne's tomb. Then Otto gave Boleslaw a throne. The point was that Otto III deemed Poland as a sovereign kingdom equal to Germany and Italy.
It was after his passing that Henry II wanted to test Poland' power. Bolweslaw defeated him in battle. Germany's power play ended with the treaty of Bautzen (1018) that was a win for Poland.
The bottom line is that Poland was stronger then than Germany.
It was after his passing that Henry II wanted to test Poland' power. Bolweslaw defeated him in battle. Germany's power play ended with the treaty of Bautzen (1018) that was a win for Poland.
The bottom line is that Poland was stronger then than Germany.
Originally posted by alternatehistorian
I think that is a little too strong word. Henry II had to deal with Italy and France, not to mention internal opposition at the same time he had to deal with Poland.
The Pope (or Otto III) created an archbishopric in Gniezno responding directly to Rome. That is not exactly the same as indepent Polish church.
Indeed, but he saw Italy, Germany and Poland as equal kingdoms AND parts of HRE.
I think that is a little too strong word. Henry II had to deal with Italy and France, not to mention internal opposition at the same time he had to deal with Poland.
The Pope (or Otto III) created an archbishopric in Gniezno responding directly to Rome. That is not exactly the same as indepent Polish church.
Indeed, but he saw Italy, Germany and Poland as equal kingdoms AND parts of HRE.
And in addition the Dutch did'nt even exist at the time, in 1000 CE they were just one of the various peoples who spoke a German Dialect.
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Yeah.
Taking Poland into the empire might be problematic given all the other things the emperors are trying to do, but otherwise . . .
For some reason the Habsburgs were better in trying to get Poland during 1306 AD, perhaps if Rudolf Habsburg survives, he could pull a Jogaila and be a competent ruler in Poland.
Maybe. But that Rudolf wasn't emperor, nor were any others for quite a while (well, technically Albert died in 1308).
Perhaps if Rudolf outlived his father, he could be the King of Poland as well.
How?
He's not Emperor (probably), and even if he is, that doesn't mean Poland is part of the HRE.
I think by integrating it as one of the constituent Kingdoms of the HRE perhaps make it as a Kingdom under the HRE just like Bohemia or a title of the Holy Roman Emperor like the Kingdom of Italy and Germany.