WI: Poles take Berlin in '39 [pic]

This belongs in ASB.

Really?

No one has mentioned the Russians...

Stalin 'planned to send a million troops to stop Hitler if Britain and France agreed pact'

Stalin was 'prepared to move more than a million Soviet troops to the German border to deter Hitler's aggression just before the Second World War'

Papers which were kept secret for almost 70 years show that the Soviet Union proposed sending a powerful military force in an effort to entice Britain and France into an anti-Nazi alliance.​
 
Really?

No one has mentioned the Russians...

Stalin 'planned to send a million troops to stop Hitler if Britain and France agreed pact'

Stalin was 'prepared to move more than a million Soviet troops to the German border to deter Hitler's aggression just before the Second World War'

Papers which were kept secret for almost 70 years show that the Soviet Union proposed sending a powerful military force in an effort to entice Britain and France into an anti-Nazi alliance.​

The idea that this proposal meant anything is laughable.

Entente-Soviet negotiations were a farce, they were done to apply pressure and force Germany to lighten demands in the political agreement being negotiated. The Soviets never seriously considered allying with the Entente, much less Poland. Stalin knew that Soviet interests aligned much more closely with German ones.

The Soviets in any Entente agreement would have to be assured that they be allowed to transport troops through Poland (which they did demand). Poland would never in a million years agree to this (which they told the French) as it would be tantamount to signing their sovereignty away and becoming a Soviet puppet. (See the agreements between the USSR and the Baltic States made in 1940)

While I can't say that this is ASB, since it doesn't actually involve the supernatural, I'm going to say it's essentially impossible. Poland could never capture Berlin.
 
Besides, those ango-soviet negotations have been public sine the 60s at least (Source is 1940: The fall of France by General Andre Beaufre which makes you question how the French lasted for 6 weeks in 1940)
 
Really?

No one has mentioned the Russians...

Stalin 'planned to send a million troops to stop Hitler if Britain and France agreed pact'

Stalin was 'prepared to move more than a million Soviet troops to the German border to deter Hitler's aggression just before the Second World War'

Papers which were kept secret for almost 70 years show that the Soviet Union proposed sending a powerful military force in an effort to entice Britain and France into an anti-Nazi alliance.​
You talk about the Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance idea in 1939
 
The usual focus of speculation on the Franco/Soviet alliance is on the military aspects, a counting of divisions, arguments over Red Army fitness for combat, and inevitably remarks how the Poles would never allow the Red Army on their territory. (They did refuse the entry of the German army in Septmber 1939, how successful was that?)

But the Soviet contribution need not include major invasions to contribute significantly. In other discussions its argued how the German/Soviet treaty of 1939 enabled Germany to mitigate the Anglo/French blockade and bought Germany a year or two of economic time to continue the war in the west. If all that has any validity then the USSR at war with Germany in September 1939 is the converse. No grain imports, no raw materials, and the USSR has the ability to leverage other adjacent nations into further cooperation with the blockade. Any oil from Rumania ceases, ores from Turkey, the same from Finnland, my numbers are back of the envelope, but they look serious for Germany in 1939-40 if not catastrophic. All that without the need for full mobilization & gargantuan battles in the east. If the Red Army must get to grips with the Germans the low budget route is via Lithuania vs East Prussia. This token military effort would be politically difficult for the nazi regime. East Prussia is a strategic dead end in most terms, but not defending it is politically catastrophic for the nazi regime. Success there also out flanks the Poles & places greater pressure on them to cooperate with the Allies.

With or without a Prussia campaign extending the Blockade entirely around Germany may lead directly to economic collapse in 1940, vs two years later in 1942 as had been calculated with the Soviet/German treaty of Brest Litovisk & Soviet support of Germany.
 
The Soviets in any Entente agreement would have to be assured that they be allowed to transport troops through Poland (which they did demand). Poland would never in a million years agree to this (which they told the French) as it would be tantamount to signing their sovereignty away and becoming a Soviet puppet. (See the agreements between the USSR and the Baltic States made in 1940)
And yet the Romanians were fine with it (transit) when the Czechs and Soviets had their mutual assistance pact.

In Poland's case German-Soviet dismemberment was preferred to Soviet transit?
Just let Germany have the corridor FFS.
 
Or better yet, Poles should just put chains around their necks and willingly become slaves of Germany, everyone would be better off, right?
No, the Soviets siding with the Germans changed the reality of the situation. The Soviets wanted to stand up to the Germans at Munich but the WAllies showed they couldn't or shouldn't be counted on.
 
No, the Soviets siding with the Germans changed the reality of the situation. The Soviets wanted to stand up to the Germans at Munich but the WAllies showed they couldn't or shouldn't be counted on.
I very much doubt it would lead to anything
 
There’s no way I could see the Germans (read: Post WW2 German People), or hell, even the international community as a whole allowing for the occupation, annexation, and renaming of a capital city. Regardless if it’s Hitler’s Germany or not, the Poles could get Silesia, but taking Berlin would require population deportation if the Poles didn’t want daily insurrections on their hands.

I don’t see France, Britian, or even the Czechs standing for this
 
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And yet the Romanians were fine with it (transit) when the Czechs and Soviets had their mutual assistance pact.

In Poland's case German-Soviet dismemberment was preferred to Soviet transit?
Just let Germany have the corridor FFS.
Considering that the Polish government is on record as having been not ok with Soviet transit through their territory, I stand by my previous comment.
 
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Wendell = [ignore]
That's fine, but when German tanks breached the Polish border in 1939, they were greeted by Cavalry. Men on horseback. Poland is not taking Berlin in 1939 without serious changes early enough to likely butterfly Nazism and perhaps Germany itself out of existence. Furthermore, if you're some other power, you have zero interest in giving to the Poles something they've never controlled historically.
 
German tanks breached the Polish border in 1939, they were greeted by Cavalry. Men on horseback.
They charged infantry and armored cars while equipped with anti-tank rifles, sadly you fell for a Die Wehrmacht myth that's seriously damaging to the Polish national character.
 
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They charged infantry and armored cars while equipped with anti-tank rifles, sadly you fell for a Die Wehrmacht myth that's seriously damaging to the Polish national character.
Not even this. I believe it eas isolated incident when Polish cavalier recon unit stumbled on German recon unit armed with light tanks or armored cars. It was later overblown to proportion of Polish cavalry with lances charging against panzers.
 
Not even this. I believe it eas isolated incident when Polish cavalier recon unit stumbled on German recon unit armed with light tanks or armored cars. It was later overblown to proportion of Polish cavalry with lances charging against panzers.
Thank you, not quite a Polish history buff myself.
:p
 
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