General Ripper
Banned
So, what if Liberum veto was never introduced in Poland? Or im vastly different form, like say 1/3 or 1/4 of Sejm members needed for veto?
His heir was born, but died in infancy. Here is thread about his survival:Yes, it seems that was a good opportunity to accomplish that. So, if say his heir was born and survived, he could pushed trough Prazmowski's reforms ( 2/3 majority voting, not whole Sejm anulled ).
- There was chance for it after Deluge. John Casimir gained popularity after Deluge and need of reforms became obvious. King ruined his authority again and any chances for reforms due to his vivente rege campaign, which would be avoided if John Casimir had surviving son, or if his Wittelsbach nephew is born healthly. Then Prażmowski's proposition of reforms (voting with 2/3 majority, liberum veto usage limited to special cases-envoy had to prove, that decision made by sejm breaks laws of PLC and his argumentation needs to be accepted, also not whole Sejm is made null as result, but only that decision which is vetoed. So LV could not be used to block taxes anymore. Local sejmiki get instructions to accept plans of reforms, except for vivente rege, but for John Casimir vivente rege nonsense was the only reform that mattered.
If Jan Zygmunt, son of Jan Kazimierz, survives, then there is no vivente rege campaign that made Jan Kazimierz extremaly unpopular. Lubomirski would still oppose King, but without VR he'd not gather enough support among nobility to start civil war.If Prazmowski's reforms are implemented by 1660, can this avert Lubomirski's Rokosz? Or would Jan Kazimierz need to utterly annihilate Lubomirski's forces and other reactionaries to clear the way for decisive reform?
- There was chance for it after Deluge. John Casimir gained popularity after Deluge and need of reforms became obvious. King ruined his authority again and any chances for reforms due to his vivente rege campaign, which would be avoided if John Casimir had surviving son, or if his Wittelsbach nephew is born healthly. Then Prażmowski's proposition of reforms (voting with 2/3 majority, liberum veto usage limited to special cases-envoy had to prove, that decision made by sejm breaks laws of PLC and his argumentation needs to be accepted, also not whole Sejm is made null as result, but only that decision which is vetoed. So LV could not be used to block taxes anymore. Local sejmiki get instructions to accept plans of reforms, except for vivente rege, but for John Casimir vivente rege nonsense was the only reform that mattered.
Besides liberum veto, other problem are hetmans, who are nominated for life and can't be replaced. Only thing, that king could do about this is to outlive them. Magnates are especially big problem in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (there were times, when single magnate family (like Pac and Sapieha) dominated GDL, envoys from GDL and Ukraine were the ones responsible for breaking most of Sejms. Without LV eastern magnates would not be able to paralyse country as easily as IOTL. Also there was great chance to reduce power of these magnates, missed by Augustus II, who had other problem (Carl XII chasing him all the way to Saxony): Lithuanian Civil War-lesser nobles crushed Sapieha family. Institution of so called Confederated Sejm (Sejm that made decisions with simple majority of votes) was used IOTL with great success by Poniatowski to push his reforms.And what if the proposal was implemented? Was it too late for the PLC to get its act together or was there still a realistic chance of a meaningful reform? After all, absence of the liberum veto would be just a tool: there was a need for the will to pass the meaningful reforms and these reforms could be against the interests of many powerful people. Veto or no veto the magnates would still have a lot of power (even by the virtue of their financial and military might) and reforms would almost inevitably curb that power.
Besides liberum veto, other problem are hetmans, who are nominated for life and can't be replaced. Only thing, that king could do about this is to outlive them. Magnates are especially big problem in Grand Duchy of Lithuania (there were times, when single magnate family (like Pac and Sapieha) dominated GDL, envoys from GDL and Ukraine were the ones responsible for breaking most of Sejms. Without LV eastern magnates would not be able to paralyse country as easily as IOTL. Also there was great chance to reduce power of these magnates, missed by Augustus II, who had other problem (Carl XII chasing him all the way to Saxony): Lithuanian Civil War-lesser nobles crushed Sapieha family. Institution of so called Confederated Sejm (Sejm that made decisions with simple majority of votes) was used IOTL with great success by Poniatowski to push his reforms.
Also, without VR campaign, which was sponsored by Louis XIV, there would not be strong pro-French party like IOTL ('malkontents'). French involvement did nothing positive for PLC, it only antagonised Habsburgs-Condé, d'Enghien or Conti running for Polish crown were for obvious reasons not viewed positively in Vienna. Habsburgs, who initially supported Polish reforms after Deluge, changed their minds when Jan Kazimierz tried to impose Bourbon duke on the throne and started to support opposition against king.
-Dynastic rule in PLC continues, PLC became de facto hereditary monarchy after several generations, Opole is Vasa's hereditary duchy, French influence in PLC is smaller than IOTL, so France is not using PLC to distract Habsburg's attention.OK, so what would be a realistic result of your best case scenario by, say, mid XVIII (time when in OTL the PLC was already beyond a realistic hope)?
So how does the 1800s go for a surviving PLC? What is its' part in the concert of europe?PLC was already modernizing IOTL during second half of 18th century. 1790s PLC was not the same as 1750s PLC, and Poland doesn't need much-just to survive beyond *Napoleonic* times.
Better for everyone around, except for Prussia. Polish lands are richer, because Vistula watershed, which was naturally one economic region, is not cut into 3 parts, Polish corelands are not cut off from the sea. Russia is not wasting resources fighting Polish uprisings (Russians already get from PLC what was really important for them-Smolensk and Eastern/Southern Ukraine). Thanks to trade with richer Polish lands, also neighbouring regions of Austria and Russia are richer.So how does the 1800s go for a surviving PLC? What is its' part in the concert of europe?