Assuming Poland is as prepared as it can be with a July-August POD, how long can they hold off the Germans, and how long does Stalin wait to pounce (since IOTL he only invaded after Poland had been all but destroyed)? Since 90% of the Wehrmacht was in Poland, is there a chance of France nutting up and attacking?
WI: Poland fully mobilized before September 1
- Thread starter Snowstalker
- Start date
With Poles fully prepared German losses go higher and their progress is slower. Poles migth have avoided a lot of confusion caused by starting mobilization, calling it off and starting it again. With all Polish units positioned when they were supposed to be there would be less confusion during the war itself, when some units after being mobilized couldn't reach their destination and find their army/group commander. Army "Prusy", Polish main strategic reserve, would have been ready and waiting against main German thrust. They wouldn't have defeated it, but they might have been able to stop them for same time and inflict some losses on them. Operational Group "Wyszków" might have been able to hold position on the Narew rover for some time. Etc., etc.
However, Polish defensive plan was flawed, Poland's strategical position was terrible and German Army was superior to Polish Army in every aspect except courage. Poles had no chance even to fight Germany to a standstill, and they knew it. Polish strategy was to hold as long as possible to give the Allies (France and Britain) time to organize their own offensive from the west, as it had been promised.
The French (and the British) weren't to keen on attacking, and believed, correctly or not, they were unable to give Poland any serious help. They launched the Saar offensive, which was half-hearted at best and considered it done.
I think Stalin might have attacked, only he might have waited a bit longer. IMO he would have attacked pretty much at the same moment he did IOTL - with Polish Army practically already defeated and Allies being passive in the west. It might be 24th or 27th September instead of 17th, but he would have attacked.
However, Polish defensive plan was flawed, Poland's strategical position was terrible and German Army was superior to Polish Army in every aspect except courage. Poles had no chance even to fight Germany to a standstill, and they knew it. Polish strategy was to hold as long as possible to give the Allies (France and Britain) time to organize their own offensive from the west, as it had been promised.
The French (and the British) weren't to keen on attacking, and believed, correctly or not, they were unable to give Poland any serious help. They launched the Saar offensive, which was half-hearted at best and considered it done.
I think Stalin might have attacked, only he might have waited a bit longer. IMO he would have attacked pretty much at the same moment he did IOTL - with Polish Army practically already defeated and Allies being passive in the west. It might be 24th or 27th September instead of 17th, but he would have attacked.
In justification of Stalin can be said that the decision on the invasion of Poland was probably caused not by the desire to grab a piece of someone else's territory, but logical desire to cut back on prey for Hitler's.
Dirk_Pitt
Banned
THAT is utter rot.
Everything Stalin did(in this regard) was an attempt to reclaim old Imperial Russian lands.
Notice after the war Stalin didn't give Poland those lands back.
It was a land grab, pure and simple, and the West let it happen... to our undying shame.
All right. Let will introduce that Stalin did not intervene and Germany captures the whole of Poland. As a result, Hitler gets extra 17 million people, some industry, food resources. USSR is it necessary?
An obvious landgrab. Although I don't think he cared that those lands once belonged to Russia (for example the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact would have put the Soviet border on the Vistula and left Lithuania in German hands before it was amended), they simply happened to be nearby and easy to take.
Poland was doomed from a strategic position. After the Czeck occupation and Danzig being used as a jumping-off point, it was a rather hopeless affair in terms of 'winning"
That said, it would of course have prolonged things.
If Poland could have lasted a lot longer (months?) would Britain and France have attacked Germany?
As it was, it was over before it even started and that prevented Britain and France from launching anything meaningful (after the fall of Poland of course).
For how long should Poland have carried on before France and Britain would see it could be "safe" to honour their agreement with Poland?
November?
December?
January 1940?
If the campaign stretches into December, I could imagine that the weather would not be fantastic for mobile war and the Polish road network not being of the greatest quality either. In short. It could get bogged down in mud.
I do believe Stalin was busy building "buffer zone" against Germany; hence a slice of Poland will go down very well.
Ivan
That said, it would of course have prolonged things.
If Poland could have lasted a lot longer (months?) would Britain and France have attacked Germany?
As it was, it was over before it even started and that prevented Britain and France from launching anything meaningful (after the fall of Poland of course).
For how long should Poland have carried on before France and Britain would see it could be "safe" to honour their agreement with Poland?
November?
December?
January 1940?
If the campaign stretches into December, I could imagine that the weather would not be fantastic for mobile war and the Polish road network not being of the greatest quality either. In short. It could get bogged down in mud.
I do believe Stalin was busy building "buffer zone" against Germany; hence a slice of Poland will go down very well.
Ivan
Had Poland the supplies for a war that lasts several months?
can it produce enough ?
IIRC the "industrial heartland" was west of the Vistula. even with a better performance I assume Poland will have increasing difficulties to replace lost and damaged equipment and spent ammo.
a few more weeks, but not months.
can it produce enough ?
IIRC the "industrial heartland" was west of the Vistula. even with a better performance I assume Poland will have increasing difficulties to replace lost and damaged equipment and spent ammo.
a few more weeks, but not months.
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They produced tanks, artillery, small arms, aircraft. That looks pretty capable. I've never read about concrete fortresses/defense lines like the Czechs, Germans, and Russians all had.
Originally posted by Reader347
Poland did produced all those things, but I'm not sure about the numbers they were capable of producing, especially considering ammunition, not to mention getting it to the front line. Besides, IMHO the campaign in Poland would have been over before Poles run pout o fthe ammo, especially if the Soviets join in.
As far as the fortification goes, Poland didn't have any long line. The largest Polish fortified positions were the Fortified Area "Silesia" (Obszar Warowny "Śląsk") and hastily prepared the Mława Position, both unfinished. Poland had too long borders to fortified them all.
Poland did produced all those things, but I'm not sure about the numbers they were capable of producing, especially considering ammunition, not to mention getting it to the front line. Besides, IMHO the campaign in Poland would have been over before Poles run pout o fthe ammo, especially if the Soviets join in.
As far as the fortification goes, Poland didn't have any long line. The largest Polish fortified positions were the Fortified Area "Silesia" (Obszar Warowny "Śląsk") and hastily prepared the Mława Position, both unfinished. Poland had too long borders to fortified them all.
Almost none, actually. Pretty much whole Polish Air Force was relocated to provisional wartime bases before September the 1st. When Germans launched their invasion, they attacked peacetime bases and destroyed some very old training planes. That plus Goebbels' propaganda created a myth of Polish Air Force destroyed on the ground. Most of Polish planes destroyed in 1939 were shot down or simply destroyed by Poles themselves where their bases were to be captured by German (an they had no fuel to fly away).