Wait, what? The Soviets didn't occupy European Turkey! Fat chance of Stalin ever removing his tanks from Constantinople...I'm going to go out on a limb and say: no.
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Wait, what? The Soviets didn't occupy European Turkey! Fat chance of Stalin ever removing his tanks from Constantinople...I'm going to go out on a limb and say: no.
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after two world wars, and Nazi Germany. 1 thing I am certain of is that Germany is not going to be as large as it was.If (as is very unlikely) the Allies got that far East, I would think a unified (and larger-than-OTL) Germany would be a much more important consequence (for Europe and the world at large) than a divided Poland...
after two world wars, and Nazi Germany. 1 thing I am certain of is that Germany is not going to be as large as it was.
I could by that. However if part of Poland is occupied by the Soviets at wars end, and Poland was much further to east, I am not certain the Soviets are going to willingly leave polish soil. Of course the wuestion is will they fight for it, in my made up scenario I don't think they would and would simply retreat to 1938 borders.Not as large as it was before World War II, but larger than at present (and of course unified much earlier). For example, by themselves, the Western Allies would not have given the area between the Oder and the western Neisse to Poland, nor IMO would they have given Poland Stettin.
I could by that. However if part of Poland is occupied by the Soviets at wars end, and Poland was much further to east, I am not certain the Soviets are going to willingly leave polish soil. Of course the wuestion is will they fight for it, in my made up scenario I don't think they would and would simply retreat to 1938 borders.
There would be lots of plebiscites some Germany would win others it would loose. The end result would be interesting if they kept Austria and some of the lands lost to Poland.
But, considering the amount of ethnic cleansing, mass murder and other things, I think Poland would get due compensation in some form other than east Prussia which should be in better shape.
If it is Poland that is the Cold War frontline country, Germany likely would be weaker than otl not stronger, the occupation measures would be harder and denazification deeper.Not as large as it was before World War II, but larger than at present (and of course unified much earlier). For example, by themselves, the Western Allies would not have given the area between the Oder and the western Neisse to Poland, nor IMO would they have given Poland Stettin.
The division of Europe was decided at the negotiating table, not on the battlefield.
True, but theoretically Poland was supposed to be an independent country didn it? that means that Polish government in exile instals itself in Poland, free elections are organized, allied forces stay there for some time... Soviet troops could be shipped to Germany but in relatively small numbers and with less equipment and would be less agressive towards Allies later leading to safer world. Imo in the situation of Allies reaching Vistula, Poland (and Czechoslovakia) would end finlandized and Germany still divided.The division of Europe was decided at the negotiating table, not on the battlefield. That's why the Soviets withdrew from Austria and didn't intervene in the Greek Civil War. Just because the allies get to the Vistula first doesn't mean Stalin's going to shrug and say "well played imperialist pigs!" Why does Stalin negotiate half of Poland and all of Germany away?
If it is Poland that is the Cold War frontline country, Germany likely would be weaker than otl not stronger, the occupation measures would be harder and denazification deeper.
They were reluctant because they knew Poland would be a Soviet puppet. With Poland being western puppet or finlandized situation might be different.In OTL, the West was very reluctant to accept the Oder-western Neisse line--in fact the Soviets pretty much imposed it on them. I just cannot see the western allies *on their own initiative* depriving Germany of so much ethnic-German territory. Yes, of course, the West as well as Russia wanted Germany to be shrunk from its 1937 borders, but depriving Germany of everything east of the Oder (including East Prussia) would be quite enough. Why add to the refugee problem?
well.. the western allies are not quite as angry as the hornets nest the germans created in the east. don't get me wrong, the Western allies wanted to punish Germany. but what the germans did in the east is another topic all together.Why would the Germans continue fighting in the East if Germany is occupied? The two sides were destined to meet roughly in the middle of Germany, should the W-allies advance faster the Germans would just send more people from East to West to fight changing the balance on both fronts which results in... both sides meeting roughly in the middle of Germany at the end.
well.. the western allies are not quite as angry as the hornets nest the germans created in the east. don't get me wrong, the Western allies wanted to punish Germany. but what the germans did in the east is another topic all together.
so maybe they would consider with saner leadership at the helm to "not really hold the west back too much" but keep fighting the soviets until the absolute end while trying to get the west to convince the soviets to halt. and the west might do this if they think they can keep a free western leaning Poland and the soviets contained... if the story plays out the way I have been talking.
It cant play out - if the factories making German weapons and ammo are captured and the rail lines cut in the West the East falters and the Soviets advance at full steam. To fight in the East they need to hold and defend the factories in the West, if the factories in the West are more threatened they'll divert forces to defend there thus weakening the defence in the East making the Soviets there advance faster, the outcome is always W-allies and Soviets meeting in the middle, except if you have some kind of deal where the W-allies try to screw with the Soviets and make a deal with the Germans - fat chance of that happening.