WI: Poland allied with Germany

Before WW2 the Poles were concerned about the Germans but mostly they were hostile to the Soviets. Polish national interests included breaking off Ukraine and Belarus from the Soviet Union. To that end alliance with Germany and Japan were sought.

Was it possible for such an alliance given Hitler's ambitions for Lebensraum?
 
Before WW2 the Poles were concerned about the Germans but mostly they were hostile to the Soviets. Polish national interests included breaking off Ukraine and Belarus from the Soviet Union. To that end alliance with Germany and Japan were sought.

Was it possible for such an alliance given Hitler's ambitions for Lebensraum?

I don't really know and this is just based on assumption rather than fact but wouldn't the Poles have some intrest in Silesia and E.Prussia?
 
Barbarossa on a smaller scale perhaps. Hitler would never settle for lebensraum that Germany wasn't actaully connected to.
 
Before WW2 the Poles were concerned about the Germans but mostly they were hostile to the Soviets. Polish national interests included breaking off Ukraine and Belarus from the Soviet Union. To that end alliance with Germany and Japan were sought.

Was it possible for such an alliance given Hitler's ambitions for Lebensraum?

I would have to say no.

Poles are Slavs, and as such Hitler believed them to be Untermensch. They were marked for extermination along with the Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Of course a sneakier, more Machiavellian alt-Hitler could try doing what he did in OTL - pulling them into an alliance of convenience with an eye towards screwing them over later, as with the Soviets and the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. But then, Poland would have to be militarily much stronger than it was in real life in order to make such a pairing worthwhile.
 
Hitler would certainly be happy to enter into any such alliwance. I very much doubt he would have any intention of honouring it, though, and the Polish government had much fewer illusions about him than stalin did.
 
I would have to say no.

Poles are Slavs, and as such Hitler believed them to be Untermensch. They were marked for extermination along with the Jews, Gypsies, etc.

Of course a sneakier, more Machiavellian alt-Hitler could try doing what he did in OTL - pulling them into an alliance of convenience with an eye towards screwing them over later, as with the Soviets and the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. But then, Poland would have to be militarily much stronger than it was in real life in order to make such a pairing worthwhile.

Croats, Slovaks, and Bulgarians were Slavs too. Aryan doctrine wasn't exactly known for it's internal consistency. Considering the Nazism attempts at courting Poland in late 1930's ("Baltic Sea isn't the only Sea"), this doesn't really seems all that far-fetched.
The only thing that would have to change was a Polish leaderships - the historical one was very stubborn about Danzig/Corridor.
 
Polish policy in interwar, specialy in 30'ies in rhigt oriented Sanacia peroid was keeping that same distance to USSR and Germany as long as possible, while looking alies in west: France and GB. So: if non-agression pact with Germany: that same with Soviets. I don't see any political force in pre war Poland to take risk of alliance with Germany. Even slighty fascist, antysemical National Democrats was from their roots mainly anti-german. they can talk with Mussolini, but no with Nazis.
 
Polish policy in interwar, specialy in 30'ies in rhigt oriented Sanacia peroid was keeping that same distance to USSR and Germany as long as possible, while looking alies in west: France and GB. So: if non-agression pact with Germany: that same with Soviets. I don't see any political force in pre war Poland to take risk of alliance with Germany. Even slighty fascist, antysemical National Democrats was from their roots mainly anti-german. they can talk with Mussolini, but no with Nazis.

Recently I've read an article that challenged this view, arguing that outside of rhetorics, Polish policy was much less anti-German than anti-Soviet
 
Definitely Plausible

Hitler was a South German, not so automatically anti-polish as the Prussian Junkers. Hitler immediately wanted Danzig and a narrow corridor to Prussia, given that he seemed pointed toward extending the dubious honor of a sort of vassalage alliance to Poland along the lines of the relationship Germany would ultimately have with Romania.

An anti-communist alliance would have some appeal to a number of Polish leaders. With the belief that compensation would include a port in Lithuania, the package seems saleable.

I personally believe he would later demand a post Barbarossa corridor of substantial size through the Ukraine in exchange for the balance of White Russia. Not a happy ending for Poland, but not the extinction planned for it in OTL.

I would really like to read informed thoughts as to how such an alliance (I imagine with a POD in the mid 30's) would play out with the West and Russia
 
Didnt Poland have some interest in a part of Czechoslovakia? They could double team the Czechs if the Czechs fight. Poland was very expansionist at the time.

Then if Poland just helped Germany invade Czechoslovakia then GB and France arnt going to be too happy to protect Poland so Poland could probably be forced to give up if they were compensated with Lithuania like said. No matter who wins the war though Poland would be screwed. Hated by Soviets and West and Germany really wants some Russian land. :(
 

Eurofed

Banned
Didnt Poland have some interest in a part of Czechoslovakia? They could double team the Czechs if the Czechs fight. Poland was very expansionist at the time.

Then if Poland just helped Germany invade Czechoslovakia then GB and France arnt going to be too happy to protect Poland so Poland could probably be forced to give up if they were compensated with Lithuania like said. No matter who wins the war though Poland would be screwed. Hated by Soviets and West and Germany really wants some Russian land. :(

Czechoslovakia refuses to implement the Munich Agreement, because it has got strong guarantees of military backing from the Soviet Union. Germany declares war on Czechoslovakia, soon followed by Hungary. The USSR decides to send troops to Czechoslovakia, asks Poland and Romania for right of passage, and declares war to Germany & Hungary. Britain and France, true to their word at Munich, and worried at seeing the Red Army in Central Europe, remain neutral. Poland, scared at seeing the Red Army crossing its territory and deployed all along along its southern border, and eager to get its share of Czechoslovakia, refuses passage to the Soviets. Stalin orders the Red Army to force Polish borders open, and Poland declares war to Moscow and Prague. Yugoslavia decides to be true to its alliance to Czechoslovakia. Mussolini, always eager to join an anticommunist crusade and grab long-standing Italian claims in Yugoslavia, declares war to Belgrad and Moscow. Romania wavers between conflicting alliance committments to Czechoslovakia and Poland, refuses passage to the Soviets as well, but eventually decides that the USSR is the bigger threat, and joins the anti-Soviet coalition.
 
Czechoslovakia refuses to implement the Munich Agreement, because it has got strong guarantees of military backing from the Soviet Union. Germany declares war on Czechoslovakia, soon followed by Hungary. The USSR decides to send troops to Czechoslovakia, asks Poland and Romania for right of passage, and declares war to Germany & Hungary. Britain and France, true to their word at Munich, and worried at seeing the Red Army in Central Europe, remain neutral. Poland, scared at seeing the Red Army crossing its territory and deployed all along along its southern border, and eager to get its share of Czechoslovakia, refuses passage to the Soviets. Stalin orders the Red Army to force Polish borders open, and Poland declares war to Moscow and Prague. Yugoslavia decides to be true to its alliance to Czechoslovakia. Mussolini, always eager to join an anticommunist crusade and grab long-standing Italian claims in Yugoslavia, declares war to Belgrad and Moscow. Romania wavers between conflicting alliance committments to Czechoslovakia and Poland, refuses passage to the Soviets as well, but eventually decides that the USSR is the bigger threat, and joins the anti-Soviet coalition.

Whats it with the Russians and supporting doomed nations eh? :D Anyways cool, awesome job, although Stalin got a little too trigger happy there. Basically the West's dream scenario, wait thats not right the dream scenario for the UK would be able to control the world and stop war using the LON, while France would want to puppetize Germany. Its a perfect world for them without them knowing it. That sounds better.

i wonder who would win that war, probably soviets.
 
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Eurofed

Banned
Whats it with the Russians and supporting doomed nations eh? :D Anyways cool, awesome job, although Stalin got a little too trigger happy there. Basically the West's dream scenario, wait thats not right the dream scenario for the UK would be able to control the world and stop war using the LON, while France would want to puppetize Germany. Its a perfect world for them without them knowing it. That sounds better.

i wonder who would win that war, probably soviets.

While a total German victory (ie the Urals border) would be deeply unlikely (at least without UK and FR joining the antisoviet coalition), a Soviet victory in this scenario borders ASB. The only plausible outcome is a decisive but not total Brest-Litovsk German victory after fighting to exhaustion.

Think of it: in this scenario Germany and its allies can focus their undivided war potential on the Eastern front, have full access to world trade (so no oil problem to field a fully mechanized army or lack of other commodities), no Allied bombing, the sympathy of worldwide anti-communist public opinion (since Hitler and Mussolini have done nothing really questionable). Stalin has no allies (Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia are encircled and shall go down in a month), American Land-Lease would be politically deep-end ASB, UK and France may send some covert aid if it seems Hitler is winning too easily but it shall be trifles, too much, too blatant aid would politically unfeasible, Japan is almost sure to backstab Russia at some point since this war happens before Kalkhin Gol, and the USSR looks like an easier target than picking a fight with an intact West, it shall get a bloody nose but it shall tie down troops that Stalin shall need in Europe. The Russian people shall have less fighting spirit since this isn't a defensive war of the Rodina.
 
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