WI: Poison gas is never banned

After ww1, all nations (to my knowledge) stopped using Poison Gas in warfare(I'm excluding the holocaust as an act of war, and leaving it as an act against humanity).

Well, what if the use of Poison Gas isn't banned by the Geneva convention. It seems strange that of all the rules of war set by Geneva, this seems to be just about the only one that has been followed. So how might history have been effected by this?
 
Didn't Iraq use gas for five years straight in the 80s?

I don't think that was technically an act of war when they did it. I think you are thinking of when Saddam used it on the Kurds. I belive that was actually in the 90's. That technically wasn't an act of war.

What I really wanted to know was how would this effect history if western nations still used gas.
 
Didn't Italy, France and Spain use gas in the Spanish Civil war?
and Japan, maybe Italy (not sure), used it in WWII.
also, I need to check, but I think it was used in the North Yemen Civil war.
 

Sachyriel

Banned
I don't think that was technically an act of war when they did it. I think you are thinking of when Saddam used it on the Kurds. I belive that was actually in the 90's. That technically wasn't an act of war.

What I really wanted to know was how would this effect history if western nations still used gas.

No, they used it against Iran in the Iran-Iraq War.
 
I don't think that was technically an act of war when they did it. I think you are thinking of when Saddam used it on the Kurds. I belive that was actually in the 90's. That technically wasn't an act of war.

What I really wanted to know was how would this effect history if western nations still used gas.
It's been Used Occasionally ...

Unfortunately, Toxic Gasses are So Easy to Stock-Pile that Nearly Every Nation Builds up a Supply, Almost as an After-Thought to their Civilian-Chemical-Industries ...

It has a Lot in Common with Nuclear Detente, Except EVERYONE can Make them, And Tactical Usage is Much Easier!
 
After ww1, all nations (to my knowledge) stopped using Poison Gas in warfare(I'm excluding the holocaust as an act of war, and leaving it as an act against humanity).

Well, what if the use of Poison Gas isn't banned by the Geneva convention. It seems strange that of all the rules of war set by Geneva, this seems to be just about the only one that has been followed. So how might history have been effected by this?

Britain used poison gas in the 1920s to put down an uprising in Iraq.
Spain used it in the Rif uprising. Italian "innovated" by using ground-attack planes with lewisite spray canisters against the Abessinian army who was not not equipped against any kind of chemical weapon attack, and also against civilians. In the Iran-Iraq war, both sides used chemical weapons of pretty much all kinds at the front, which, just as in WW1, failed to yield a breakthrough for either side. Whenever posion gas was used against a prepared army it was found militarily useless.

In all cases, chemical weapons turned out to be only useful to kill and maim unprotected civilians, and therefore a ban makes absolute sense IMO. The signatories of Geneva Convention (actually, already those of the Hague Land War Convention) recognised it early enough.
 
In combination with air power, it's amazing for colonial warfare, so in a no WW I TL you could see its use become embedded in the military doctrine of the colonial powers as they become habituated to deploying gas to put down insurgencies.
 
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terence

Banned
No one has mentioned the use by the Bolsheviks in the Russian civil war or the use of 'enhanced' CS by America in Vietnam.

The use of Poison gas by the British against Iraqi rebels is, unfortunately, a myth. As one may guess, Chruchill was involved. Many times in his career he got totally pissed and ordered people be gassed!
He promised to drop gas on the Iraquis and the Afghans and later on the "Quit India" marchers. He promsed that German invaders in 1940 would be "sprayed with poison gas". He urged Stalin to use anything to stop the German advance in 94 "Even poison gas". Then in light of the V-weapons he wrote this memo, which really answers the original question
[stamp] PRIME MINISTER'S PERSONAL MINUTE
[stamp, pen] Serial No. D. 217/4
[Seal of Prime Minister]
10 Downing Street, Whitehall [gothic script]
GENERAL ISMAY FOR C.O.S. COMMITTEE [underlined]
1. I want you to think very seriously over this question of poison gas. I would not use it unless it could be shown either that (a) it was life or death for us, or (b) that it would shorten the war by a year.
2. It is absurd to consider morality on this topic when everybody used it in the last war without a word of complaint from the moralists or the Church. On the other hand, in the last war bombing of open cities was regarded as forbidden. Now everybody does it as a matter of course. It is simply a question of fashion changing as she does between long and short skirts for women.
3. I want a cold-blooded calculation made as to how it would pay us to use poison gas, by which I mean principally mustard. We will want to gain more ground in Normandy so as not to be cooped up in a small area. We could probably deliver 20 tons to their 1 and for the sake of the 1 they would bring their bomber aircraft into the area against our superiority, thus paying a heavy toll.
4. Why have the Germans not used it? Not certainly out of moral scruples or affection for us. They have not used it because it does not pay them. The greatest temptation ever offered to them was the beaches of Normandy. This they could have drenched with gas greatly to the hindrance of the troops. That they thought about it is certain and that they prepared against our use of gas is also certain. But they only reason they have not used it against us is that they fear the retaliation. What is to their detriment is to our advantage.
5. Although one sees how unpleasant it is to receive poison gas attacks, from which nearly everyone recovers, it is useless to protest that an equal amount of H. E. will not inflict greater casualties and sufferings on troops and civilians. One really must not be bound within silly conventions of the mind whether they be those that ruled in the last war or those in reverse which rule in this.
6. If the bombardment of London became a serious nuisance and great rockets with far-reaching and devastating effect fell on many centres of Government and labour, I should be prepared to do [underline] anything [stop underline] that would hit the enemy in a murderous place. I may certainly have to ask you to support me in using poison gas. We could drench the cities of the Ruhr and many other cities in Germany in such a way that most of the population would be requiring constant medical attention. We could stop all work at the flying bomb starting points. I do not see why we should have the disadvantages of being the gentleman while they have all the advantages of being the cad. There are times when this may be so but not now.
7. I quite agree that it may be several weeks or even months before I shall ask you to drench Germany with poison gas, and if we do it, let us do it one hundred per cent. In the meanwhile, I want the matter studied in cold blood by sensible people and not by that particular set of psalm-singing uniformed defeatists which one runs across now here now there. Pray address yourself to this. It is a big thing and can only be discarded for a big reason. I shall of course have to square Uncle Joe and the President; but you need not bring this into your calculations at the present time. Just try to find out what it is like on its merits.
[signed] Winston Churchill [initials]
 
What? Nobody has mentioned the widespread use of poison-gas by the Japanese against the Chinese in the 30's? How did all of you miss that?

I know that it was used but no details. Were the Chinese troops prepared at all for gas attacks? Or was it used mainly against civilians?
 
No one has mentioned the use by the Bolsheviks in the Russian civil war or the use of 'enhanced' CS by America in Vietnam.

Can you provide more information about the use in Russian Civil War? It's a first time I have heard it. The civil war was mostly a war of maneuver, where poison gas should have the least military effect...

US also allegedly used LSD aerosols and similar psychotropic substances in Vietnam.
 
Can you provide more information about the use in Russian Civil War? It's a first time I have heard it. The civil war was mostly a war of maneuver, where poison gas should have the least military effect...

US also allegedly used LSD aerosols and similar psychotropic substances in Vietnam.
I'm not Terence, however I dare to answer your question: the Red Army used air-dropped poison gas against peasant rebels (so-called 'Antonov army') in Tambov region of Russia in 1921. As almost always and everywhere, effect was far less than predicted: Antonov's men suffered light casualties, civilians fared somewhat worse, and backlash ensued, with Red pilots being lynched by mobs when they made forced landings in rebel-controlled districts.
It's the only case of chemical warfare in the Russian Civil War that I'm aware of.
 
Going in a slightly different direction from all the questions on CW in the Russian Civil War, to what extent was CW used on the Eastern Front during WWI? I know the first German attempt to use it at Bolimov falled completely when the gas froze in the cylinders.
 
I know that it was used but no details. Were the Chinese troops prepared at all for gas attacks? Or was it used mainly against civilians?

Japan used gas on soldiers and guerillas. They preferred biological weapons against the civilian population. Only half of the Chinese troops were even issued blankets much less gas masks, although it was sometimes issued it was never common.

From Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_warfare

Despite article 171 of the Versailles Peace Treaty, article V of the Treaty in Relation to the Use of Submarines and Noxious Gases in Warfare [3] and a resolution adopted against Japan by the League of nations on 14 May 1938, the Imperial Japanese Army frequently used chemical weapons. Because of fear of retaliation however, those weapons were never used against Westerners, but against other Asians judged "inferior" by the imperial propaganda.
According to historians Yoshiaki Yoshimi and Seiya Matsuno, the chemical weapons were authorized by specific orders given by Emperor Showa himself, transmitted by the chief of staff of the army. For example, the Emperor authorized the use of toxic gas on 375 separate occasions during the battle of Wuhan from August to October 1938.[21]
They were also profusely used during the invasion of Changde. Those orders were transmitted either by prince Kotohito Kan'in or general Hajime Sugiyama.[22]
The Imperial Japanese Army used mustard gas and the recently-developed blister agent Lewisite against Chinese troops and guerrillas. Experiments involving chemical weapons were conducted on live prisoners (Unit 731 and Unit 516). The Japanese also carried chemical weapons as they swept through Southeast Asia towards Australia.
 
Poison gas is not effective against armies equipped and trained to deal with them. If they were in common use then more armies would spend the resources to develop countermeasures which results in no real change on the battlefield, except when dealing with vastly inferior opponents. Due to the ease of chemical weapons production however, it would mean even poor armies can retaliate with chemical weapons using terrorist tactics.
 

CalBear

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There are several threads that discuss Chemical Weapons in some detail that may be of interest to you that go into great depth on this question.

The short answer, however, is that Chemical Weapons are, in general, not worth the effort. They tend to be far less effective in a combat situation than is sometimes believed, both due to their unpredictable nature and due to the ability of any equal opponent to react in kind. If you are facing a seriously inferior enemy they can be quite effective as usage as recently as the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and Iraqi usage against the Kurds demonstrated.
 
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