WI: Plymouth Colony remains separate from Massachusetts?

In OTL, the Plymouth Colony was separate from the rest of English Colonies, and never had a formal charter like the others. However, when the Dominion of New England was formed, it absorbed Plymouth Colony, but fell apart soon. However, Plymouth Colony ran into problems, as they didn't have a formal charter. But Plymouth didn't want to get a formal charter, so instead just joined Massachusetts Bay Colony, and other territories in 1691.

What if Plymouth Colony, after the dissolution of the Dominion of New England, didn't get absorbed into Massachusetts. Instead, Plymouth asks for a formal charter from the crown, and Plymouth Colony remains separate from Massachusetts throughout the 18th Century. Or what if the Dominion of New England never formed?

What would Plymouth Colony be like in the 17th Century and even 18th Century?
And this scenario is based off a previous scenario, but if the American Revolution happen, where does Plymouth join?
And if they do join the USA, what would their culture be like? And it's effect on the slave-free state balance?

Happy Thanksgiving Everyone.
 
May Plymouth be more libertarian, possibly less seculaar, or even go Republican in an effort to forge it's own identity in modern times?

I can see them saying we're not Rhode Island and we were here first before Massachusetts.
 
May Plymouth be more libertarian, possibly less seculaar, or even go Republican in an effort to forge it's own identity in modern times?

I can see them saying we're not Rhode Island and we were here first before Massachusetts.
Hard to see why it would stand out from the rest of New England. It might be less lopsidedly Democratic than the reduced Massachusetts, then again note that Romney was a Republican governor in MA not too long ago. New Hampshire is very closely divided electorally speaking, as is Maine--once upon a time Vermont was fairly conservative too.

But while we should not overstate Democratic hegemony in New England, neither should we overlook the regional group characteristics, and so I would figure Plymouth as a state would be more Republican and less Democratic to the degree it is more rural and less urban. That said, I figure it would be fairly urban and lean more Democratic than say Maine does.

It could "go Republican" to the degree other New England states do, in short--which is to say, elect a minority of R members of Congress, the occasional Senator and Governor, and retain a strong but minority voice in state legislatures. Becoming a strongly Republican bastion on the other hand seems mighty far fetched.
 
What if Plymouth Colony, after the dissolution of the Dominion of New England, didn't get absorbed into Massachusetts. Instead, Plymouth asks for a formal charter from the crown, and Plymouth Colony remains separate from Massachusetts throughout the 18th Century. Or what if the Dominion of New England never formed?

What would Plymouth Colony be like in the 17th Century and even 18th Century?
And this scenario is based off a previous scenario, but if the American Revolution happen, where does Plymouth join?
And if they do join the USA, what would their culture be like? And it's effect on the slave-free state balance?

Without the Dominion of New England the general course of NE history would be different, so I think that's a bigger question.

If Plymouth manages to receive a Royal Charter after the dissolution of the DNE, overall history likely follows a similar course. Like OTL, Plymouth colony would remain more pastoral and less mercantile than Mass Bay. But being a separate colony, this would hamper its development, tax revenue, and the like. Unlike the rest of southern NE, PY has no deepwater ports in the 1700s, so its mercantile impact will be minimal. Plymouth likely remains quite small and poor (or at least with a very small ruling class) through the early-19th Century.

While Plymouth did have a fairly strong loyalist presence (the Town of Marshfield, for example, denounced the Boston Tea Party and later requested Redcoat detachments to quarter in town), I don't think it's strong enough to keep PY from getting caught up in the general sentiment of New England, sending delegates to the ContCongress, and voting for independence. Perhaps they're more moderate delegates compared to those from Mass Bay, depends who gets chosen to attend. Alternatively though, I wonder if the British could use Plymouth as a base for retaking Boston in 1775/1776. Given the general atmosphere of rebellion in New England at-large post-Intolerable Acts, I'd be surprised if the British could manage it any better with PY being a distinct entity than they did OTL with it incorporated into MA. It would likely depend on who's prominent in PY politics. I'd say 80:20 that PY makes no significant impact in the course of the Boston Campaign and overall Revolutionary Era. I could see PY being firmly in the anti-federalist camp during the Constitution ratification debate, and firm supporters of Jeffersonian/Madisonian policies through the 1820s.

Unless PL severely restricts the voting franchise, I'd expect they'd follow RI's lead post-independence in inflating currency and forgiving debts, rather than the pro-creditor policies that were driven by the merchant classes in Boston and led to Shays' Rebellion. During the Federal Era, Plymouth's economy is driven by maritime trades - fishing, whaling, shellfishing, with subsistence farming and the Boston trade serving the interior and northern reaches.

The Industrial Revolution would totally change the landscape for Plymouth. Once New Bedford and Fall River develop with mills and factories the economy will add a third facet to the Boston-oriented merchants and Cape/Islands maritime; manufacturing and in-state exports from the South Coast. Basically the same as OTL, but with added importance because it transforms the state's economic center of gravity. It's likely that sometime in the early-1800s (if not earlier) Plymouth's capital shifts to the South Coast.

Plymouth's presence certainly would impact U.S. westward-expansion politics, but probably not very much. It would be as simple as splitting an OTL slave state into two. Thinking out loud... the MO Compromise wouldn't have happened as it did because free states would have already had a one-state advantage in the Senate. MO would have just been allowed to join, and Maine would have to wait for Arkansas... or something... alternatively, West Florida would have become a state rather than absorbed by Alabama and Mississippi... yeah all of that would progress differently, but the end result would be the same. Sometime in the 1850-1870 period there will be a Civil War.

From the Civil War, Plymouth will mirror OTL, being staunchly GOP until the immigrants in the South Coast cities are whipped by the Democrats and unions in sufficient numbers to make the state competitive.

Moving into the 20th Century, Plymouth's geographic divide will be stark, with more conservative Yankees in most of the state, but the ethnic immigrants in FR and NB hosting a strong enough pro-labor voting bloc to make the state competitive for Democrats. Assuming the 20th Century goes roughly the same, post-war de-industrialization will be unkind to Plymouth. With the whaling industry gone and the fishing industry flagging, the shutdown of factories will hurt. If the state government is lucky they'll find a way to capitalize on the DoD spending via MIT that literally made eastern Massachusetts what it is today. High tech would be the future for Plymouth, once again drawing it back towards Boston's economy rather than its own urban cities. FR and NB would likely flounder just like in OTL. Modern vacation culture would keep the Cape and Islands afloat at least to the present day ITTL.

Politically, modern PY would probably fairly competitive, especially with conservatives improving their margins in the post-industrial cities. Almost certainly has a GOP governor and closely divided state legislature. Perhaps competitive for federal offices as well.
 
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Politically, modern PY would probably fairly competitive, especially with conservatives improving their margins in the post-industrial cities. Almost certainly has a GOP governor and closely divided state legislature. Perhaps competitive for federal offices as well.
I would disagree. Plymouth would be more urban than say, Maine, and its economy would be dominated by services and other "modern" sectors. So, there would be moderate Republican governors, but the state legislature and federal politics would be more Democratic than Maine and New Hampshire - I mean, like other Southern New England states (Rhode Islands, Connecticut).
 
I would disagree. Plymouth would be more urban than say, Maine, and its economy would be dominated by services and other "modern" sectors. So, there would be moderate Republican governors, but the state legislature and federal politics would be more Democratic than Maine and New Hampshire - I mean, like other Southern New England states (Rhode Islands, Connecticut).
Yes, certainly more Dem than Maine/NH. Probably a bit less than RI and CT. Not outside the realm for them to elect GOP US-SEN on an off-cycle. All this hinges on modern politics ITTL being roughly the same as OTL. The political coalition shift that we're undergoing would probably net the GOP a few points in PY.
 
I think I just spotted a butterfly.

OTL New England contains six states and about 4% of the national population. It accounts for 12% of the Senate. The imbalance is not noted that much because of the low population Mountain and Plains states, which are also over-represented and usually vote the opposite of New England. And both the Plains and New England had a much greater share of the national population before World War II, it has since dropped each census.

So now there are seven New England states, right? No, because the sixth New England state, Maine, split off from Massachusetts as part of the compromise of 1820, to admit a free state to balance the admission of Arkansas. ITTL, the admission of Maine is not necessary, in fact ITTL you will see a slave state admitted earlier to address the free state advantage when this becomes an issue.

So Maine remains part of Massachusetts. Since the area covered by the Plymouth Colony now has a larger population than Maine (not always the case in the past), this is no big deal.

My guess there are butterflies in national politics. Maine did not really start swinging from Democrat to Republican until the 1960s. The area covered by Plymouth Colony started swinging from Democrat to Republican earlier. Prominent Maine Senators, of which there were several, though James Blaine was the most notable, would have to get elected from Massachusetts. You would get a different set of Senators from Plymouth, and no nationally known politicians came from Plymouth, so you would have a completely different set of Senators, though some pols from Massachusetts might carpetbag. Maybe some unknown from the area makes it big in politics.
 
There were OTL three presidential elections after 1824 where one of the two major party candidates finished second in the nationwide popular vote and carried only one or two states. I'm phrasing it this way to avoid counting 1856 and 1912, since Fillmore and Taft finished third in the nationwide popular vote.

The three are 1936, when Landon carried Vermont and Maine, 1972, when McGovern carried Massachusetts, and 1984, when Mondale carried Minnesota. The 1984 election would be not affected, but in 1936 and 1972 the states the losing candidate did carry were in New England, and involved Massachusetts and Maine.

So depending on the breakdown of the precincts in Massachusetts, you could get situations where Landon carries one state, or three states (less likely), or Vermont and Plymouth only, and you could get a second state for McGovern or Nixon winning all fifty states. In 1972, McGovern carried Massachusetts by 200,000 votes, and Nixon carried Maine by 96,000 votes. Going to the David Leip atlas, Nixon carried Plymouth County within Plymouth by 5%, and McGovern carried Bristol County by 10%, with Nixon carrying the two small island counties comfortably. So it looks like McGovern still carries Massachusetts (excluding Plymouth and including Maine), and Plymouth is really close. Nixon carried neighboring Rhode Island by 25,000 votes.
 
I think I just spotted a butterfly.

[...]

So Maine remains part of Massachusetts. Since the area covered by the Plymouth Colony now has a larger population than Maine (not always the case in the past), this is no big deal.

Maine desperately wanted to be independent of Massachusetts by 1820. I'd be very surprised if they aren't admitted as part of some other free-state/slave-state compromise going forward. Or else Some other OTL almost-state like West Florida becomes a slave-state in the 1810s to balance out the free-states. Either way I don't see Maine remaining a part of Massachusetts past 1840 or so.
 
Plymouth being a free state will affect the balance between Slave and Free states in Congress.

Expect Maine to be apart of Massachusetts longer and Kansas having to be a slave state (Or New Mexico).
 
West Florida could certainly be a state, and that would have a bigger impact in the twentieth century than Plymouth being a state.

I checked out the 1948 presidential election. Truman carried Massachusetts by 133,000 votes, but his margin in Boston was 141,000 votes, so he narrowly lost the rest of the state. Dewey carried Maine by 38,000 votes. Massachusetts at the time had 16 EV and Maine 5. Plymouth maybe would have had 6 EV and Massachusetts ex. Plynmouth plus Maine would have had 15. Dewey would have had a good chance of carrying Plymouth, but Truman would have still won Massachusetts ex. Plymouth plus Maine, so no effect.
 
The Industrial Revolution would totally change the landscape for Plymouth. Once New Bedford and Fall River develop with mills and factories the economy will add a third facet to the Boston-oriented merchants and Cape/Islands maritime; manufacturing and in-state exports from the South Coast. Basically the same as OTL, but with added importance because it transforms the state's economic center of gravity. It's likely that sometime in the early-1800s (if not earlier) Plymouth's capital shifts to the South Coast.
Not just New Bedford and Fall River - Attleboro and Taunton were also in on the industrialization game, particularly jewelry in the case of the former and silver and iron in the case of the latter, on top of the traditional (for the region) textile mills. Now, Plymouth could probably diversify its industrial base outside of that and include in more types of industrial business (maybe even expand it into new areas, such as Plymouth proper or even Hyannis, to provide additional work outside of the maritime trades). There would be little things that would probably be different, or at least non-existent, compared with OTL (for example, since the holiday season is upon us, the National Shrine of Our Lady of La Salette in Attleboro puts on a beautiful Festival of Lights around this time every year IOTL; the Missionaries of Our Lady of La Salette may not necessarily have arrived ITTL or have chosen somewhere else). If Plymouth's state capital were to move, Taunton would be one option (IOTL it serves as the county seat for Bristol County) or Middleborough (centrally-located rail hub for the Old Colony).

Another facet - transportation. In particular, the Old Colony Railroad may have a different evolution ITTL, even if the main terminal is still in Boston. It could remain independent, and probably develop the Attleboro-Taunton-Middleborough-Plymouth lines into a single route for people wanting to travel within the state without transferring in Boston or Providence. How it will survive into the 20th century I don't know, but as it would be a comparatively small railroad, and if the USRA was popular enough during WW1 (assuming OTL still happens, more or less), the state could take over the Old Colony during the Depression instead of letting it fall into bankruptcy (even though it would also serve Massachusetts and Rhode Island). The formation of the MTA in 1947 serving Boston and surrounding communities (succeeding BERy) could also serve as a means for agreements with Massachusetts and Rhode Island WRT rail service in those areas. In this manner, the MBTA in some form would have existed at least a decade or so earlier than OTL (no NYNH&H ownership of the Old Colony - although allowed to run service on the Boston South-Providence mainline - means no abandonment of passenger service in 1959, triggering calls for the Commonwealth to step in and rescue regional passenger rail), and the Old Colony would be integrated into the MTA's plans for service expansion (along the Old Colony's freight and inter-city trains) as two states working together). In addition, once Rhode Island starts to come up with rescue plans for its privately-owned bus and trolley services, the Old Colony's services would complement RIPTA and hence included in RIPTA's own plans. (Bonus here - no New Haven ownership of the Old Colony could mean the old train station in Pawtucket could still be in operation and not deteriorate, even alongside a newer station facility, as would Providence's old train station.)

Media - newspapers and local radio stations would still be their own thing, although for rating purposes Plymouth would be incorporated with Rhode Island (as is somewhat the case IOTL with the Providence/New Bedford media market, which covers Bristol County and Rhode Island together - although the nature of radio waves means Providence TV stations also include southeastern Connecticut and Cape Cod in their local news). In addition, the Boston stations would also cast their shadow here as it would Rhode Island and (southern) New Hampshire.
 
Oh, and I just remembered one other thing. Colonial border disputes were not unknown even into the 19th century, so it could theoretically be possible to have at least some of the land east of the Blackstone River to remain in Plymouth Colony's jurisdiction. In this case, that would primarily affect Cumberland, Pawtucket east of the Blackstone (either as a separate town or as part of Seekonk), East Providence (which was actually the original town center for Seekonk), Barrington, Bristol, Warren, Tiverton (as part of East Freetown or with East Freetown as part of Tiverton), and Little Compton (all going by modern municipalities; Woonsocket would probably not exist, at least in its modern form), unless it starts off as a border town that just grew along with the mills, much like Pawtucket could be).
 
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