WI Pitt launched a war on Spain over Nootka Sound crisis, with intent to landgrab?

WI Pitt launched a war on Spain over Nootka Sound crisis, with intent to landgrab?

  • a) Britain wins

    Votes: 28 77.8%
  • b) Spain (possibly w/support of France) wins

    Votes: 8 22.2%

  • Total voters
    36

raharris1973

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This was about 1789-1790 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootka_Crisis

It was a standoff over trading in the Pacific Northwest between Britain and Spain. WI (probably) the British escalated it into a war.

Would it be easy for the UK to impose a settlement on Spain? Or could Spain hold its own because of the distance from other British possessions?

Could/would France stay out?

How would George Washington's US, and Catherine the Great's Russia, react to an Anglo-Spanish war?
 
The Wikipedia article you linked notes that Spain backed down because the French weren't going to come to their aid and there was some discussion that they might actually side with the British. By August the National Assembly of France had declared that France wouldn't go to war. The Spanish knew they weren't going to win against Britain alone which is why they negotiated.

The bigger questions is, would Pitt have launched a war if it looked like the French were going to get involved? I strongly suspect he wouldn't. Nootka was an easy target with little resistance. I doubt he had any intention of starting a war with France over it.

But if Spain didn't back down, the British would probably seize it with little effort, maybe shell some Spanish ports and then a treaty would be signed. Nothing too major.
 

raharris1973

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So far Britain is winning 2 to 0.

What are the chances that Britain gets carried away and uses the occasion to seize large tracts of land from the Spanish in North America to make a "Newer England" or "New Albion". Say the British secure their claim over Oregon, but also add Florida, Spanish Louisiana and Alta California to their British North American portfolio.

It would be like a second chance at huge American colonies, only this time they swear they'll get it right.

The US gets hemmed in north, west and south by British North America/"Canada", with only the old northwest and southwest up to the Mississippi to expand to?

I think President Washington would be wary about leading the country into war to opposing the British again so soon after the constitution and recovery from the independence war. However, perhaps a later US administration is more inclined to war for New Orleans and Florida in the early 1800s when it looks like the British are too busy with Napoleon.
 

raharris1973

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The Wikipedia article you linked notes that Spain backed down because the French weren't going to come to their aid and there was some discussion that they might actually side with the British.

I had missed that part until you pointed it out. What might France have wanted from Spain? Eastern Santo Domingo? Louisiana? Minorca? Fernando Poo? Part of the Philippines?
 
So far Britain is winning 2 to 0.

What are the chances that Britain gets carried away and uses the occasion to seize large tracts of land from the Spanish in North America to make a "Newer England" or "New Albion". Say the British secure their claim over Oregon, but also add Florida, Spanish Louisiana and Alta California to their British North American portfolio.

It would be like a second chance at huge American colonies, only this time they swear they'll get it right.

The US gets hemmed in north, west and south by British North America/"Canada", with only the old northwest and southwest up to the Mississippi to expand to?

I think President Washington would be wary about leading the country into war to opposing the British again so soon after the constitution and recovery from the independence war. However, perhaps a later US administration is more inclined to war for New Orleans and Florida in the early 1800s when it looks like the British are too busy with Napoleon.

How would they go about doing that, really? Sending a contingent of Redcoats and administrators marching across the unmapped reaches of half a continent? New Orleans can be seized,and Flordia, but that would send off alarm bells in the, as you said, Americans who'd just secured their independence of King Purple Poop (George III) trying to encircle them in preparation for a Reconquest. I fully expect Spain and the US to at least informally co-operate in such a scenario, and to keep out of any conflicts will the French either formally or informally. At some point, the Wheel of Revolutionary Governments is going to land on a pro-Alliance party, and at that point we're getting the old Revolutionary War band back together for an encore.
 
Say the British secure their claim over Oregon, but also add Florida, Spanish Louisiana and Alta California to their British North American portfolio.

The British had just given up their claims on Florida and Louisiana six years earlier in the Peace of Paris. Plus the Americans were claiming part of those lands already so I'm not sure the British want to renew their involvement in that part of the world so quickly as that region was an unprofitable quagmire both politically and literally. Alta Californa maybe but there's still other places of strategic interest as well. We're only a few years out from the British invasion of La Plata which might be a prime target.
 

Hecatee

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Well if you have this war start early enough you may get the French fleet dispatched just before the revolution to a conflict against the Royal Navy at a time when its officers are still the very capable one that would be so lacking a few years later... So you get a weakened RN maybe unable to interfere as effectively against Napoleon's expedition to Egypt a decade later.

But short term you also take out of the equation a lot of the ships that helped a number of the aristocracy flee to Britain and form a court in exile that was able to somewhat support the Vendée uprisings. So overall you make the Revolution more effective...

Then you can imagine two scenarios : either the French fleet bases itself in Louisiana and create a country in exile there, independant and with enough artillery to prevent any later american move, or you have an earlier sale of Louisiana to the US...

You also weaken in any cases the French Republican Navy as they have to build hulls from scratch due to the fact the aristocrats don't go back to France with their ships... and here they don't have sailors left... Could it lead to more radical decisions, including going for an early steam fleet ? :p
 
9 times out of 10 (being generous to Spain), Britain wins this conflict.

It likely stays regional. Expanding the war goals and having it become a greedy grab of non northwest territories increases greatly the chance that other countries get involve, and Britain does not want this.

However, Britain is going to increase the spoils in the northwest. Britain was claiming more than it got OTL, but compromised. TL, Britain will take more, maybe all the way down to northern California.

I don't think it becomes a 'let's dismantle the Spanish Empire' type deal. More of a quick affair where Britain controls the region and Spain realizes it can't win. OTL, Spain realized before the war. TL, they'll figure it out pretty quickly.
 
How would they go about doing that, really? Sending a contingent of Redcoats and administrators marching across the unmapped reaches of half a continent? New Orleans can be seized,and Flordia, but that would send off alarm bells in the, as you said, Americans who'd just secured their independence of King Purple Poop (George III) trying to encircle them in preparation for a Reconquest. I fully expect Spain and the US to at least informally co-operate in such a scenario, and to keep out of any conflicts will the French either formally or informally. At some point, the Wheel of Revolutionary Governments is going to land on a pro-Alliance party, and at that point we're getting the old Revolutionary War band back together for an encore.

Or the British bring the Americans along for the ride, as Miranda proposed.

Miranda managed to get an audience with Pitt in which he advocated for an Anglo-American liberation of South America from the Spanish and the installation of an Inca noble as King. The Americas would proceed to become open to British and American trade and the British would be entitled to authority over (but not ownership) Panama.

If the Nootka war turns into an opportunistic effort by the Americans and British to drive the Spanish out of South America... neat? It seems like a thing the Federalists would be in to.

America grabs Louisiana and Florida. Britain nabs Rio de la plata, Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Alta California. They probably horse-trade a bigger Maine for a better British connection to Oregon and California.
 
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What effect does the new colony in the north-west have on Alaska? With the British already having forces there, any conflict with Russia leaves a big target painted on Russian Alaska.
 
What effect does the new colony in the north-west have on Alaska? With the British already having forces there, any conflict with Russia leaves a big target painted on Russian Alaska.

Britain may not care enough about it to take it. They didn't care enough about it OTL during the Crimean War. It wasn't much of a launch pad for Russian aggression and it was seen as a wasteland.


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Here's a fun thought: would Britain go about renaming bits of Alta California if it took the place? Drake's Bay is right by San Francisco Bay, and thus northern Alta California would be the location of his proposed New Albion Colony.
 
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