WI Piłsudski supports Denikin in 1919?

1919 saw Anton Denikin and his white army advancing towards Moscow. Meanwhile first round of Polish-Soviet War ended. Piłsudski decided not to support Denikin, as Denikin found Polish independence highly incoventient and Ukrainian independence totally out of the question. At that time Piłsudski thought that Bolshevik Russia would be less dangerous than resurgent White Russia.

But what if Denikin is willing to make concessions (either sincere or just diplomatic ploys to gain Polish support)? Would it be plausible to organise a coordinated offensive? Just how influencial Polish support would be? Extra soldiers would be welcomed, but on the other hand Polish Army operating in Russia proper would provoke "defend the homeland" response from Russian population. Also note, that Entente would be much more willing to finance Polish army, if it would cooperate with White forces.

Thoughts?
 
1919 saw Anton Denikin and his white army advancing towards Moscow. Meanwhile first round of Polish-Soviet War ended. Piłsudski decided not to support Denikin, as Denikin found Polish independence highly incoventient and Ukrainian independence totally out of the question. At that time Piłsudski thought that Bolshevik Russia would be less dangerous than resurgent White Russia.

But what if Denikin is willing to make concessions (either sincere or just diplomatic ploys to gain Polish support)? Would it be plausible to organise a coordinated offensive? Just how influencial Polish support would be? Extra soldiers would be welcomed, but on the other hand Polish Army operating in Russia proper would provoke "defend the homeland" response from Russian population. Also note, that Entente would be much more willing to finance Polish army, if it would cooperate with White forces.

Thoughts?
At this time Kolchak is main White.:cool:
 
Originally posted by Michele
Well then, maybe the question can be rephrased as: what about some Polish cooperation with the White Russians?

And why should the Poles help them? From Polish POV they were no better than Red Russians. Piłsudski would have been happy if the Russian Civil War lasted a few years longer, giving Poles time to organize their new state and army, and of course secure their territorial claims. And if the Reds had won that war, that's even better. White Russia, most probably some kind of dictatorship or monarchy, would still have been unhappy about loosing a big chunk of its western territory to the Poles, and and sooner or later it would have tried to get them back. The same could be said about the Reds, but there was one difference. White Russia would have been perfectly acceptable state for western powers. Red Russia not. Piłsudski could have counted on western support in war against bolsheviks. Against white Russia? Not necessarily.
 
Piłsudski would have been happy if the Russian Civil War lasted a few years longer,
If he had higher opinion about Bolshevik military capabilities Piłsudski would probably be more willing to commit forces to keep White forces in balance with the Reds. Yet even if White Russia recognized Poland there was still the Ukrainian issue. Poland wanted it to become independent state, closely allied with Poland. This would be unacceptable to even the most "cooperative" of White generals.

If we had Dmowski leading Poland in 1919, he would surely choose to support White Russia. But with Piłsudzski that is impossible without some serious POD. Any ideas?
 
What about the possibility of the Bolsheviks offering a favorable border to the Poles, perhaps assuming that they can correct the border at a later date or simply concluding that a larger Poland is better than losing the Soviet Civil War?
 
What about the possibility of the Bolsheviks offering a favorable border to the Poles, perhaps assuming that they can correct the border at a later date or simply concluding that a larger Poland is better than losing the Soviet Civil War?
They tried to offer peace, but Poland judged their efforts as insincere, for the very reason you mentioned. (Namely it was sure that Soviets will want to expand west to reach Germany.)
 
If he had higher opinion about Bolshevik military capabilities Piłsudski would probably be more willing to commit forces to keep White forces in balance with the Reds. Yet even if White Russia recognized Poland there was still the Ukrainian issue. Poland wanted it to become independent state, closely allied with Poland. This would be unacceptable to even the most "cooperative" of White generals.

Did Dmowski want the Ukraine as well?


If we had Dmowski leading Poland in 1919, he would surely choose to support White Russia. But with Piłsudzski that is impossible without some serious POD. Any ideas?

Wouldn't Dmowski ultimately get some seriously bad stuff happening? My understanding is that Poland was basically trashed after 1918, and even in 1928 not up to prewar levels of industrial production. If you get tied down in Russia...
 
Wouldn't Dmowski ultimately get some seriously bad stuff happening? My understanding is that Poland was basically trashed after 1918, and even in 1928 not up to prewar levels of industrial production. If you get tied down in Russia...

Actually economic situation under the Dmowski could be better as he was:
1) More trusted by the Allies, especially the French
2) Widely supported by the finacial elites. I.e. Paderewski was appointed prime minisiter in january 1919 because fat cats refused to support previous 'socialist' government.
 
Did Dmowski want the Ukraine as well?
He did want parts of Ukraine directly incorporated into Poland. Interestingly, that is what happened OTL despite Dmowski not being leader of Poland, after Piłsudski federation plans were proved to be impossible. (Due to most Ukraine being taken by the Soviets)
Wouldn't Dmowski ultimately get some seriously bad stuff happening? My understanding is that Poland was basically trashed after 1918, and even in 1928 not up to prewar levels of industrial production. If you get tied down in Russia...
Actually economic situation under the Dmowski could be better as he was:
1) More trusted by the Allies, especially the French
2) Widely supported by the finacial elites. I.e. Paderewski was appointed prime minisiter in january 1919 because fat cats refused to support previous 'socialist' government.
If Poland can occupies parts of Russia and include, for example, Kiev within it's borders that will definitely be counterproductive to the economy. But IMHO if Poland has greater success during Polish-Bolshevik war it could release a puppet Ukraine and then use it's resources.
 
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