WI : Philippe II of France and Richard Lionheart stay allies

Before the 3rd crusade, Richard and Philippe were friend. There were many problems during the Crusade, Philippe went back in France, gave some of his armies to Richard, and after Richard was captured in Austria, took back Normandy. What would be the best PoD for Philippe and Richard to remain friend ? Could there be some friendly relationships between France and England if those two didn't mess up ?

(I'm talking apart the theory that they could have been boyfriends, even though I totally ship it)
 
Before the 3rd crusade, Richard and Philippe were friends/
That was before Richard inherited Henri II's holdings. He basically befriended anyone on feudal/royal grounds that opposed the hegemonic King of England. Would Richard have remained only the Duke of Aquitaine, it's likely they would remain on fairly good terms at least in a first time against whoever would have succeeded Henry.
So the PoD is likely to have any of elder brothers of Richard surviving ITTL.

(I'm talking apart the theory that they could have been boyfriends, even though I totally ship it)
Political relationship tended to be, at this time, quite demonstrative, symbolical and physical. Readings of Illiad, Song of Roland, Aenedid, Geste of France and England really propelled this to quasi-dramatized fashions. Where we see really intimate situations, there was rather the ideal of delphic and/or heroic love. If you add to this that the very idea of intimacy didn't make it to the royal court before Louis XI (and was considered weird then)...
I don't want to run into anyone's shipping, of course.
 
Or Henry the Young, or Geoffroy.


Well, Philippe Auguste certainly had a hate-boner for Plantagenets, so there's that...

Well, I suspect that besides the personal feelings there was also an understandable wish to increase his own territories at their expense. Rather difficult to remain friendly with the people from whom you are planning to take from them something substantial.

OTOH, as one cannibal put it in an old play, "the best time to eat somebody is when he is on a business trip or sick; then you can even retain the good relations with that person" :evilsmile:
 
I think another way is having Richard married to his betrothed Alys. Obviously that require butterflying the chance of any alleged relationship between Alys and Henry II and Alys and Richard married around 1175/76. As Richard was the second son and Geoffrey of Brittany the third, only the survival of Henry the young King will keep Richard from inhereiting England and Normandy but Richard would still be the Duke of Aquitaine and Henry’s wife Margaret was unable to having children so...
 
The boy was premature and after that traumatic childbirth she was unable to have other children
She had two other recorded children with Guillaume Talvas of Ponthieu.
As for the marriage : Henry II had little interest fulfilling his promise, even disregarding the pretty much plausible abuse she was victim. Peace of Montlouis was consecrating, as a compromise, the autonomy of his sons as autonomous dukes of their demesnes (instead of mere puppets of their father) : he had to deal with Scots and French, and then had to temporize granted, but it was not something that Henry II would have agreed on definitively.
 
She had two other recorded children with Guillaume Talvas of Ponthieu.
As for the marriage : Henry II had little interest fulfilling his promise, even disregarding the pretty much plausible abuse she was victim. Peace of Montlouis was consecrating, as a compromise, the autonomy of his sons as autonomous dukes of their demesnes (instead of mere puppets of their father) : he had to deal with Scots and French, and then had to temporize granted, but it was not something that Henry II would have agreed on definitively.
We were talking about Marguerite of France who was married to Richard's older brother Henry the young King and then to Bela III of Hungary, not her younger sister Alys who was the wife of Guillaume Talvas of Ponthieu.
Henry wanted Alys' dowry, specially Vexin (who was previously Marguerite's dowry and then and was transferred to Alys) and arranged the match for that reason and if Henry the young king had not rebelled in 1173 (rebellion who ended with Eleanor's imprisonment) or Alys was old enough to be married before that date her wedding to Richard would be surely happened
 
We were talking about Marguerite of France who was married to Richard's older brother Henry the young King and then to Bela III of Hungary, not her younger sister Alys who was the wife of Guillaume Talvas of Ponthieu.
My bad then, to my defense the conversation went to a confusing turn at this point.

Henry wanted Alys' dowry, specially Vexin (who was previously Marguerite's dowry and then and was transferred to Alys)
Adèle's dowry was, from the Peace of Montlouis, more specifically Berry than Vexin, giving that Vexin was already in holding of Henry II even after the Peace of Montlouis.

and arranged the match for that reason
It's more likely that the marriage was a way to hope for Capetian succession, due to the lack of heir for Louis at this point, and why the wedding was unusually celebrated with so young children (as the remarriage of Louis possibly leading to this hope being moot).

and if Henry the young king had not rebelled in 1173 (rebellion who ended with Eleanor's imprisonment)
That's unlikely at this point : Henry had too much to gain revolting against Henry II : if he wanted actual power and autonomy, he had no choice.

Alys was old enough to be married before that date her wedding to Richard would be surely happened
Adèle's union to Richard is directly tied to the revolt. Would have Henry (or William, as he was to marry Marguerite originally) not revolted you won't have as much reasons for this union than IOTL.[/QUOTE]
 
My bad then, to my defense the conversation went to a confusing turn at this point.


Adèle's dowry was, from the Peace of Montlouis, more specifically Berry than Vexin, giving that Vexin was already in holding of Henry II even after the Peace of Montlouis.


It's more likely that the marriage was a way to hope for Capetian succession, due to the lack of heir for Louis at this point, and why the wedding was unusually celebrated with so young children (as the remarriage of Louis possibly leading to this hope being moot).


That's unlikely at this point : Henry had too much to gain revolting against Henry II : if he wanted actual power and autonomy, he had no choice.


Adèle's union to Richard is directly tied to the revolt. Would have Henry (or William, as he was to marry Marguerite originally) not revolted you won't have as much reasons for this union than IOTL.

Wrong. Richard and Alys/Adele were engaged since 1169 so four years before that rebellion and she was sent in England as ward of Henry II when she was only 8 years old and Henry II surely knew who either of his daughers-in-law had zero chance to become Queen of France because they were the third and fourth daughter of Louis VII (the two eldest were the daughters of Louis by Eleanor, who were married to the brothers of their father's third wife). Plus the third wedding of Louis VII happened days after Margaret and Henry's engagement (but Margaret's dowry was Vexin and Henry really wanted it, so much who after the death of young Henry that land was included in the dowry of Alys who was engaged to Richard).
Plus William died in April 1156, while Margaret was born in 1157 and was engaged to young Henry in 1160 so I can not see how she was ever engaged to William
 
Wrong. Richard and Alys/Adele were engaged since 1169 so four years before that rebellion
She was brothered before the Peace of Montlouis but her dowry was fixed in 1174, specifically Berry.

Henry II surely knew who either of his daughers-in-law had zero chance to become Queen of France because they were the third and fourth daughter of Louis VII (the two eldest were the daughters of Louis by Eleanor, who were married to the brothers of their father's third wife).
At this point, there was no established rule on the precedence of succession for what mattered daughters (and you never had for what matter royal succession in France). Henry II had no reason to think he couldn't push his luck. That he might probably be disappointed doesn't make him less ambitious (especially giving what we know about him).

(but Margaret's dowry was Vexin and Henry really wanted it, so much who after the death of young Henry that land was included in the dowry of Alys who was engaged to Richard)
Henry already controlled Vexin at this point, what remained was more the matter of "contractual" validation of possession.
 
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