WI: Philippa of Clarence, Lionel of Antwerp's only child was born male?

Deleted member 147978

Considering that that she was the daughter and only child of Lionel Plantagenet, Duke of Clarance and that her marriage with Edmund Mortimer, 3rd Earl of March was the catalyst that'll spark the War of the Roses a century later. Not to mentioned that Richard Plantagenet, 3rd Duke of York made claim based on the Mortimer lineage that derives from Philippa herself.

Thus I propose the What If Scenario:
What if Philippa Plantagenet, Countess of Ulster was born a male? If she was, I believe it's most likely she'll named "Edward" or "Lionel" Plantagenet, 2nd Duke of Clarence. With Edward/Lionel being alive and well in England, how would his existence effect the Plantagenet Dynasty as a whole? Would he bore progeny, and would the cadet "House of Clarence" rule the Kingdom of England upon the death of the Plantagenet main line?
 

Bob_Jenko

If Richard II still gets himself deposed and Edward/Lionel or his son is still around, then they are the obvious choice to take the throne rather than Gaunt. Unlike the Mortimers otl their claim wouldn't go through a woman and I'd say it's less likely their heir is a child at this point.

Also intrigued to see who 2nd Clarence would marry and what would happen to the Mortimers.
 
RedKing

RedKing

Edward III’s entail is never written as there is no risk of a Queen inheriting a throne. Richard II has a clear heir ITTL, meaning Bolingbroke doesn’t take the crown, or if he dies is quickly deposed afterwards.
 

Deleted member 147978

Bob_Jenko said:
If Richard II still gets himself deposed and Edward/Lionel or his son is still around, then they are the obvious choice to take the throne rather than Gaunt. Unlike the Mortimers otl their claim wouldn't go through a woman and I'd say it's less likely their heir is a child at this point.

Also intrigued to see who 2nd Clarence would marry and what would happen to the Mortimers.
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I'm not entirely sure that Richard II would get deposed IOTL, unless he abdicates to Edward/Lionel or his son instantly if things go really bad for him.
I'm also sure there are other marriageable candidates besides the Mortimer Family.
 

Deleted member 147978

RedKing said:
Edward III’s entail is never written as there is no risk of a Queen inheriting a throne. Richard II has a clear heir ITTL, meaning Bolingbroke doesn’t take the crown, or if he dies is quickly deposed afterwards.
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Richard II getting deposed is absolutely based on if things go really bad for him? OTL showed us that which resulted in Bolingbroke disposing him in 1399. I'm not sure if Clarence would do the same thing to Richard II.
 

Deleted member 147978

CaptainShadow said:
Sure there are, but going for a local seems unlikely when he could be marrying a "Princess"/getting one of the largest dowries in the history of dowries.
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I suppose his would-be marriage to Violante would bring him a superbly hefty dowry for his own coffers.
 

Deleted member 147978

Possibly the same goes for Isabella of Leon and Castile.
 

Anarch King of Dipsodes

Leaving aside butterflies, what are the probable knock-ons?
*Edward is born 1355, his mother dies in 1363, Lionel dies in 1368.

Unless... having a son would affect his marriage to Violante Visconti, in which case he may not go to Italy and die there. It's been noted that *Edward would be almost the same age as Violante (13-14), and so he might marry her instead of his 30-year-old father.

But let's skip that. *Edward is an orphan; he doesn't marry Edward Mortimer, but his guardians may marry him to someone else. (Who were Philippa's guardians? Her grandfather Edward III?) Probably not that soon - he's only 14 in 1369, I'd say it depends on what his guardians want.

Mortimer marries someone else. He's the favorite of some powerful people, as seen by his marriage to a great heiress and appointment as Earl Marshal the next year. So who does Mortimer marry instead? And how does that affect his career? I.e. does he get sent to Ireland 1379 and die fighting Irish rebels? Perhaps not, as he isn't Earl of Ulster by marriage.

Meanwhile, *Edward becomes Earl of Ulster as well as Duke of Clarence and a major player in his own right. Maybe he gets sent to Ireland instead of Mortimer. His relations with Joohn of Gaunt will be different.

As noted, he would be heir presumptive to Richard II after 1377. OTL that was Philippa, whose claim as a woman must have been weak; she died in 1382, leaving three Mortimer children. Her son Roger became heir presumptive until his own death in 1398.

If *Edward marries a few years later (1380, he's 25), as heir presumptive does he marry a big-name foreign princess?

All speculation; I really don't know much about the details of the court in this period.
 

Deleted member 147978

Anarch King of Dipsodes said:
Leaving aside butterflies, what are the probable knock-ons?
*Edward is born 1355, his mother dies in 1363, Lionel dies in 1368.

Unless... having a son would affect his marriage to Violante Visconti, in which case he may not go to Italy and die there. It's been noted that *Edward would be almost the same age as Violante (13-14), and so he might marry her instead of his 30-year-old father.

But let's skip that. *Edward is an orphan; he doesn't marry Edward Mortimer, but his guardians may marry him to someone else. (Who were Philippa's guardians? Her grandfather Edward III?) Probably not that soon - he's only 14 in 1369, I'd say it depends on what his guardians want.

Mortimer marries someone else. He's the favorite of some powerful people, as seen by his marriage to a great heiress and appointment as Earl Marshal the next year. So who does Mortimer marry instead? And how does that affect his career? I.e. does he get sent to Ireland 1379 and die fighting Irish rebels? Perhaps not, as he isn't Earl of Ulster by marriage.

Meanwhile, *Edward becomes Earl of Ulster as well as Duke of Clarence and a major player in his own right. Maybe he gets sent to Ireland instead of Mortimer. His relations with Joohn of Gaunt will be different.

As noted, he would be heir presumptive to Richard II after 1377. OTL that was Philippa, whose claim as a woman must have been weak; she died in 1382, leaving three Mortimer children. Her son Roger became heir presumptive until his own death in 1398.

If *Edward marries a few years later (1380, he's 25), as heir presumptive does he marry a big-name foreign princess?

All speculation; I really don't know much about the details of the court in this period.
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I appreciate that you tried on the effects of the POD.

*Edward, 2nd Duke of Clarence and Earl of Ulster will indeed be a major player in his own right. With him alive and well, like you said he'll be the heir presumptive after Richard II.
He'll likely either marry Violante Visconti or Isabella of Castile based on opinions here.
 

Ivan Lupo

*Edward of Clarence will also be the oldest of King Edward's grandchildren too, if I'm not mistaken. If his uncle the Black Prince dies on schedule and predeceases the king, and assuming this Edward grows to be a competent and able man...well, he will be 21 years old and a very real and dangerous threat to the potential reign of the underage Richard.

Depending on how ruthless *Edward is, there may be a pillow or poison in poor Richard's near future.
 

Deleted member 147978

Ivan Lupo said:
*Edward of Clarence will also be the oldest of King Edward's grandchildren too, if I'm not mistaken. If his uncle the Black Prince dies on schedule and predeceases the king, and assuming this Edward grows to be a competent and able man...well, he will be 21 years old and a very real and dangerous threat to the potential reign of the underage Richard.

Depending on how ruthless *Edward is, there may be a pillow or poison in poor Richard's near future.
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If you insist that *Edward of Clarence become a competent and able Plantagenet Royal and a very dangerous threat to Richard, is he willing to depose him with support from the nobility and Parliament?
 
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