WI: Philip V of Spain AND France?

I've obviously been delving deeply into Succession conflicts of the eighteenth century...

1. What absolutely HAS to happen for the War of Spanish Succession to go the other way and allow for Philip V to become ruler of both France and Spain?

2. What is the result of such a union? What does The Franco-Spanish Empire look like? What do the AMERICAS look like? Where is the capital? What happens to poor Portugal, so far from God and so close to Philip?

(I would like to see a slight Francophonic transformation of Spanish language and culture, personally. It stems from going to a French Cafe in central Mexico one time and falling in love...)

3. Am I wrong to assume NO or FEW Godzilla sized butterflies here? To my knowledge France and Spain remained on the same side of almost every, if not every single conflict of the next hundred years or so.

BONUS 4: Is it too far out to ask for a little discussion on the plausibility of the Anglo-Prussian Personal Union (previously discussed in a seperate thread) as it might occur in this world? I'm fascinated by the fleeting thought of European Balance of Power situated between two European (and incidentally North American) Blocs with other nations (particularly Russia and Austria) acting as the constant equalizers between the two...

Any additional info or discussion on this would be great. Welcome me to my new obsession: 18th Century Succession Crises/Wars/Possibilities...

And they're off!
 
France never accepted foreign ruler. Unless you crush France completely of course.

Philip V was hardly a foreigner. He was Louis XIV's grandson and didn't even speak Spanish. Unless I'm greatly confused, France also fought for Philip's ascension as ruler of a combined Franco-Spanish Empire in this particular War.
 
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Philip V was hardly a foreigner. He was Louis XIV's grandson and didn't even speak Spanish. Unless I'm greatly confused, France also fought for Philip's ascension as ruler of a combined Franco-Spanish Empire in this particular War.

I was always under this impression too, for what little I even know about it...He wanted to make his capital Paris or something along those lines.
 
Implausible. Philip V had to make a renounciation for him and his descendents to any rights of the french throne.

If he wanted nevertheless to claim the throne : the Orleans (aka known as "The Official i want to be king instead of the king" since Gaston d'Orleans) would lunch a civil war with many supports, that Philipp is not going to win. Especially with all the foreign powers delighted of the war between France and Spain, ready to help anyone who allow Spain to be separated from France.

But let's imagine that Philippe V manage to became king of France. It wouldn't be long after he put is ass on french throne for Spain revolting, in the same way Portugal did with the Bragance.
 
Implausible. Philip V had to make a renounciation for him and his descendents to any rights of the french throne.

If he wanted nevertheless to claim the throne : the Orleans (aka known as "The Official i want to be king instead of the king" since Gaston d'Orleans) would lunch a civil war with many supports, that Philipp is not going to win. Especially with all the foreign powers delighted of the war between France and Spain, ready to help anyone who allow Spain to be separated from France.

But let's imagine that Philippe V manage to became king of France. It wouldn't be long after he put is ass on french throne for Spain revolting, in the same way Portugal did with the Bragance.

So is there any scenario that you can think of uniting France and Spain into a Personal Union?
 
So is there any scenario that you can think of uniting France and Spain into a Personal Union?

Personal Union? It's rather easy : choose a PoD between 1200 and 1500 and you could have at a moment a Personal Union with Castille/Aragon as you did with Navarre during the late Capetians.
Or you could have another Sucession War in different circumstance (by exemple having more than Bavaria, Koln and Spain supporting France, support from any other european power, maybe a jacobite UK would be a good thing), that would allow Philippe V to not renounce for his descendents a claim to french throne in case of death of first Bourbon branch.

It wouldn't resolve the problem of an unstable Spain tough. So you need a both very victorious Philippe that paradoxally grant more liberties he did to his former foes (as keeping the Catalan Liberties).

It wouldn't be uniting tough, as in this scenario, both Crown of Castille and Aragon would keep their uses, plus the Crown of France.
As it's stated since Henri IV that the property and the lands of the king of France must de facto be under french laws...We have a problem here.

I can see sort of peninsular war any way, it's just too difficult to France to handle an unification of foreign countries that have too a long history of proper customs by avoiding a war, critically with others european countries willing to stop any reconstruction of a megaempire à la Karl V.

You'll have a war anyway i'm afraid, in any PoD posterior to XI century.

Aslo, Union and Personal Union are too distinct things : personal union is theorically keep the parts as independents, when union is making one body of all the parts.
 
There was only one way for Philippe V of Spain to become Philippe VII of France: young Louis XV had to share the fate of his grandfather (Louis le Grand Dauphin, son of Louis XIV), father (Louis le Petit Dauphin, son of the previous) and brother (Louis, Duke of Britanny) who all died of smallpox in 1711-1712. Philippe being the second son of the Grand Dauphin, he would have become Louis XIV's heir via Salic Law.

The main problem however is the War of Spanish Succession... Philippe V had been recognised as heir by Charles II, the last Hapsburg monarch of Spain. The allies contested this because they feared a possible Franco-Spanish Union would result in a too powerful Bourbon Dynasty. If Philippe V effectively becomes the heir to the French crown, the allies aren't going to accept it because of the resulting Franco-Spanish Personnal Union they fear. The problem is that the alternative isn't much better: the Hapsburg Candidate was Holy Roman Emperor Charles VI and though the allies didn't like the possibility of a Franco-Spanish Personnal Union, they didn't wish for a reformation of Charles V's Empire...
In this situation, Philippe V might still get the Spanish throne for one simple reason: by that point he had already three children (two that would die in infancy and the third one that would become Louis I of Spain for a few months in 1724 OTL) while Charles VI was childless. Thus, it would be possible to split France and Spain between Philippe's children later on.
Some people might mention Utrecht. The Treaty wasn't signed before 1714 however: if young Louis XV dies before the treaty's signature (possible given the POD I mentionned), you might see Louis XIV less okay about having his only surviving grandson (Philippe V of Spain) out of the succession. It's true the Duke of Orléans (Louis XIV's nephew) is there but from what I recall Louis XIV was extremly reluctant about having Orléans as a Regent OTL. Plus, the Sun King will be more kin to accept his grandson over his nephew.

But even if Philippe V were to live longer, I doubt France and Spain would remain in Personnal Union. It's likely Philippe would have to split the crown between his two eldest surviving sons and to have a close saying that after his personnal reign, the crowns of France and Spain would have to remain separated.

TheInfiniteApe said:
So is there any scenario that you can think of uniting France and Spain into a Personal Union?

Spain itself didn't exist before the Kingdoms of Castille and that of Aragon merged together. The two kingdoms were in personnal union in 1479 [1] but only merged together in 1516 [2]. Past those two dates, the possibility of a Franco-Spanish Personnal Union seems very low to me...

Before Spain itself show up though, it might be possible for the King of France to absorb the crowns of Castille and Aragon. Still seems hard to do...

[1] Isabella I of Castille married Ferdinand II of Aragon in 1469. She became Queen of Castille in 1474 while he became King of Aragon in 1479.
[2] Death of Ferdinand II of Aragon. The two Kingdoms of Castille & Aragon were then inherited by Charles I of Spain (V of the HRE).

kasumigenx said:
Have Joanna the Mad married to a dauphin.
No chance of that happening. Joanna's parents, the Catholic Monarchs, were very anti-French. Plus, the House of Trastamara has a long relationship of ennemity with the House of Valois... Which isn't surprising considering Charles of Valois (second son of Philippe III of France, father to Philippe VI of France and founder of the House of Valois) tried to snatch the crown of Aragon away from the Trastamara in 1285.
 
There was only one way for Philippe V of Spain to become Philippe VII of France: young Louis XV had to share the fate of his grandfather (Louis le Grand Dauphin, son of Louis XIV), father (Louis le Petit Dauphin, son of the previous) and brother (Louis, Duke of Britanny) who all died of smallpox in 1711-1712. Philippe being the second son of the Grand Dauphin, he would have become Louis XIV's heir via Salic Law.

The main problem however is the War of Spanish Succession... Philippe V had been recognised as heir by Charles II, the last Hapsburg monarch of Spain. The allies contested this because they feared a possible Franco-Spanish Union would result in a too powerful Bourbon Dynasty. If Philippe V effectively becomes the heir to the French crown, the allies aren't going to accept it because of the resulting Franco-Spanish Personnal Union they fear. The problem is that the alternative isn't much better: the Hapsburg Candidate was Holy Roman Emperor Charles VI and though the allies didn't like the possibility of a Franco-Spanish Personnal Union, they didn't wish for a reformation of Charles V's Empire...
In this situation, Philippe V might still get the Spanish throne for one simple reason: by that point he had already three children (two that would die in infancy and the third one that would become Louis I of Spain for a few months in 1724 OTL) while Charles VI was childless. Thus, it would be possible to split France and Spain between Philippe's children later on.
Some people might mention Utrecht. The Treaty wasn't signed before 1714 however: if young Louis XV dies before the treaty's signature (possible given the POD I mentionned), you might see Louis XIV less okay about having his only surviving grandson (Philippe V of Spain) out of the succession. It's true the Duke of Orléans (Louis XIV's nephew) is there but from what I recall Louis XIV was extremly reluctant about having Orléans as a Regent OTL. Plus, the Sun King will be more kin to accept his grandson over his nephew.

But even if Philippe V were to live longer, I doubt France and Spain would remain in Personnal Union. It's likely Philippe would have to split the crown between his two eldest surviving sons and to have a close saying that after his personnal reign, the crowns of France and Spain would have to remain separated.



Spain itself didn't exist before the Kingdoms of Castille and that of Aragon merged together. The two kingdoms were in personnal union in 1479 [1] but only merged together in 1516 [2]. Past those two dates, the possibility of a Franco-Spanish Personnal Union seems very low to me...

Before Spain itself show up though, it might be possible for the King of France to absorb the crowns of Castille and Aragon. Still seems hard to do...

[1] Isabella I of Castille married Ferdinand II of Aragon in 1469. She became Queen of Castille in 1474 while he became King of Aragon in 1479.
[2] Death of Ferdinand II of Aragon. The two Kingdoms of Castille & Aragon were then inherited by Charles I of Spain (V of the HRE).


No chance of that happening. Joanna's parents, the Catholic Monarchs, were very anti-French. Plus, the House of Trastamara has a long relationship of ennemity with the House of Valois... Which isn't surprising considering Charles of Valois (second son of Philippe III of France, father to Philippe VI of France and founder of the House of Valois) tried to snatch the crown of Aragon away from the Trastamara in 1285.

Why not have the Bourbons claim Aragon since the Bourbons have a claim to both Navarre and Aragon via Eleanor of Aragon, duchess of Foix.
 
Why not have the Bourbons claim Aragon since the Bourbons have a claim to both Navarre and Aragon via Eleanor of Aragon, duchess of Foix.
That's not the problem. They could claim the Moon, you'll have all Europe united to avoid the thing that all feared : a Charles Quint-like empire. Everything, every war between 1600 and 1840 had something to do with that. What you need is a situation where both economical infrastructure allow big annexations or personal unions, and longs wars to do so; and quick great diplomatic changes to make other powers accept the fact.
 
France never accepted foreign ruler. Unless you crush France completely of course.
Philip V was hardly a foreigner. He was Louis XIV's grandson and didn't even speak Spanish. Unless I'm greatly confused, France also fought for Philip's ascension as ruler of a combined Franco-Spanish Empire in this particular War.
Implausible. Philip V had to make a renounciation for him and his descendents to any rights of the french throne.

Just a ( very unlikely, thats truth ) serious French victory on the Spanish succession war AND the death of the Dauphin could produce this result ... and in the wake of massive British and Austrian hostility this would produce another war in short time ... if he also would have won this war it can became more or less stable as a personal union ... but I can see this "country" not surviving past his personal rule anyway ...

But of course stranger things have happened.

Unlikely but not impossible.
 
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