WI: Perseus of Macedon defeats the Romans

What if the awesomely-named king Perseus of Macedon, son of the previously defeated Philip V, had managed to successfully fight off the Romans at the Battle of Pydna (168 BCE), preserving the Macedonian hegemony over Greece and perhaps even expanding it?
Would the stage be set for another, more destructive war down the line, involving a Rome-Pergamon alliance?
 

Toraach

Banned
What if the awesomely-named king Perseus of Macedon, son of the previously defeated Philip V, had managed to successfully fight off the Romans at the Battle of Pydna (168 BCE), preserving the Macedonian hegemony over Greece and perhaps even expanding it?
Would the stage be set for another, more destructive war down the line, involving a Rome-Pergamon alliance?
The Romans would just send a new army. This is the key to why the Romans were so succesful, they just wanked themselves into greatness, by their unique military-demographic complex, which caused that they just had much more soldiers than any of their enemies. Even Hannibal who was extremaly lucky, with winning all those battles, lernt that one just cannot defeat the Roman Republic. I regard as lucky not Rome, that they won 2nd Punic War, but I regard Hannibal as a lucky guy, because he managed to do this war so long and costly for Rome. Only his genius on the battle field caused that this war wasn't ended after short time.
 
The Romans would just send a new army. This is the key to why the Romans were so succesful, they just wanked themselves into greatness, by their unique military-demographic complex, which caused that they just had much more soldiers than any of their enemies. Even Hannibal who was extremaly lucky, with winning all those battles, lernt that one just cannot defeat the Roman Republic. I regard as lucky not Rome, that they won 2nd Punic War, but I regard Hannibal as a lucky guy, because he managed to do this war so long and costly for Rome. Only his genius on the battle field caused that this war wasn't ended after short time.
Was that true, though? Why couldn't they defeat the Parthians and Germanics, then? Why did they spend ten whole years, including an intervention from the emperor himself, trying to subdue some unruly Cantabrians in northern Spain?
Rome's military conquests were complicated endeavours, dependant on consolidation, pacification, and assimilation of the newly conquered peoples. And that is if they did manage to conquer a piece of land.
The Roman Republic's demographic growth doesn't seem to be so advantageous if compared to their many opponents, and the structure of their military, before the Marian reforms kicked in, also doesn't seem very unique, at least to me. I am really not compelled to believing this, unless we make a case for the structural political motivation for outside ventures. Sure, it was there, but such motivations for war were not exclusive of Rome, neither were motivations for military reform.
 
Last edited:

Hecatee

Donor
Was that true, though? Why couldn't they defeat the Parthians and Germanics, then? Why did they spend ten years trying to subdue some unruly Cantabrians in northern Spain?
The Roman Republic's demographic growth doesn't seem to be so advantageous if compared to their many opponents, and the structure of their military, before the Marian reforms kicked in, also doesn't seem very unique, at least to me. I am really not compelled to believing this.
Rome was built to fight political entities that followes the "polis" model, the city-state model, or its evolution the urbanized kingdom. It did well where it found infrastructure to use and population centers to control as it could build an effective strategy to command and conquer such lands. On the other hand it had a much more difficult time in areas with a more diffuse population and less formal political structures : the Cantabrians were finally beaten because they had no place to flee, the Illirians were not savage enough anymore. The Germans on the other hand, as well as the British tribes, lacked infrastructure and political structures to target and had room to flee : they were not defeated. More efforts in Britain could have led to victory though, but it was not to be.
The Parthian Empire was a different story : it had too much of its population base out of reach of the Romans due to logistics, and a style of warfighting that was in a way too alien for the Romans. But it was mainly logistics.
 
Rome was built to fight political entities that followes the "polis" model, the city-state model, or its evolution the urbanized kingdom. It did well where it found infrastructure to use and population centers to control as it could build an effective strategy to command and conquer such lands.
But the hellenic kings and empires of the Mediterranean could, too, count on their "advanced" techniques and urban centers for their advantage to face the Romans. They could be considered as just a tough fight, if not tougher, as the isolated barbarians on the borderlands of Europe at that time.
I also don't buy into the theory of Rome having inherently smarter generals. Viriatus slapped some five Roman generals in the face before they decided to opt for another strategy and bribe other Lusitanians to murder him. Mithridates VI of Pontus took some fifty years to be subdued. Not even after defeating Philip V could the Romans annex Macedon, because they had to wait for more favourable conditions, which could end up closing themselves if Macedon got too strong.
 
Last edited:

Hecatee

Donor
What if the awesomely-named king Perseus of Macedon, son of the previously defeated Philip V, had managed to successfully fight off the Romans at the Battle of Pydna (168 BCE), preserving the Macedonian hegemony over Greece and perhaps even expanding it?
Would the stage be set for another, more destructive war down the line, involving a Rome-Pergamon alliance?
By the time of the third Macedonian war Perseus has ratter little ressources at his disposal, too few to crush the Romans in a decisive way. Rome has also had some time to recover from the second Punic and the two first Macedonian wars while Macedonia has barely had a decade to recover from its last defeat. Treasuary and manpower are depleted, whereas Rome is rich as hell and has not yet fallen into the demographic issue that would plague it for the second half of the century. You'd need antiochid support to the Macedonian to really fight for much longer against Rome and it would be hard to achieve an alliance between the two kingdoms, among other because the Seleucid have other issues at hand...
 

Hecatee

Donor
But the hellenic kings and empires of the Mediterranean could, too, count on their "advanced" techniques and urban centers for their advantage to face the Romans.
Yes but they don't wage war on Rome's territory, so they can't target the manpower and ressources of Rome
 
Yes but they don't wage war on Rome's territory, so they can't target the manpower and ressources of Rome
Except Pyrrhus and Hannibal did just that. The Cimbri and Teutones were also close to invading Italy once.
Not to mention the defensive principle. Bleed the Romans dry enough of men, and they'll eventually decide that invading your territory (which holds your own manpower and resources) was maybe not a good idea, at least for the time being. Then, use that time to better consolidate your territory against further Roman attacks. It takes a wise leader to do that, sure, but the enemies of Rome seem to have had no big shortage of them.
 
Last edited:
Well Paullus, per Goldsworthy, was refused a new army and given only levies/Latin allies as reinforcements for the conflict. The question I would ask is this a sign Roman was low on manpower or were they simply not taking the war very seriously? I think the answer to this question will determine whether Perseus has a chance.
 

Hecatee

Donor
Except Pyrrhus and Hannibal did just that. The Cimbri and Teutones were also close to invading Italy once.
Not to mention the defensive principle. Blled the Romans dry enough of men, and they'll eventually decide that invading your territory (which holds your own manpower and resources) was maybe not a good idea.
Yes but how do you come to Rome's land ? Hannibal did it through the Alps, at great cost, and was able to replenish his losses with tribes that have now been crushed and colonized by Roman settlers. Also if you're Macedonian you have to arrive through Illyria, whith whom you've been at war basically since Alexander the Great died... So the land road is probably closed.
Sea road ? Yeah, sure, if you have ships : the Macedonian fleet by this period is negligible while the Romans have enough ships ready to prevent any attempt at crossing to Italy. Beside they control all the ports on the Adriatic side of Greece so you'll need to go from the Aegean, where the Romans' allies of Pergamon have a nice efficient fleet ready to sink your ships.
So the Roman ressources and manpower are pretty immune to any type of attack.
The Cimbri and Teutones that would appear a good half a century later than Perseus' war also found themselve engaged outside of Roman territory, and far from any Roman core territory ( which is basically the lands south of the Po river)...
 
Well Paullus, per Goldsworthy, was refused a new army and given only levies/Latin allies as reinforcements for the conflict. The question I would ask is this a sign Roman was low on manpower or were they simply not taking the war very seriously? I think the answer to this question will determine whether Perseus has a chance.
Well, Eumenes of Pergamon, according to Greg Fisher, reported in 172 BCE to the Roman Senate that Perseus had "enough grain for thirty thousand soldiers, five thousand horses, and enough money to pay for ten thousand mercenaries, all for the ammount of ten years". I don't have the numbers on the Roman side to back it up, though, but the context in which Eumenes mentions it makes it seem alarming.
Perseus' actions (both real and alleged) before the conflict would also be quite expected to startle the Senate, so i would, yes, expect them to take the war seriously. Fisher, later, makes mention of the promises of both consuls in 172 BCE to turn Macedonia into a province, for example.

Source: https://www.mcgill.ca/classics/files/classics/2001-05.PDF
 
Last edited:

Toraach

Banned
Was that true, though? Why couldn't they defeat the Parthians?
The Roman Republic's demographic growth doesn't seem to be so advantageous if compared to their opponents, and the structure of their military, before the Marian reforms kicked in, also doesn't seem too unique, at least to me. I am really not compelled to believe this.
The first war with the Parthians was in 50s, later the Romans had their own problems, yet they had some succeses against them, when they finally settled themselves, sadly Augustus wasn't that fat of the final war against the Parthians. And now we are talking about the Middle Republic Period. The time of their greatest successes, first conquering Italy later the subjugating of the Mediterrain. First Rome was demographicaly better than any other city-state, because contrary to them, they constantly increasing their manpower, and recruitment base during that period, by estabilishing colonies both roman and latin, which dwellers didn't stop being Romans (well, in a case of latin colonies that's more complicated, but not important here, also landplots were bigger). Also giving every colonist 7 iugers of land for him, and 7 for each his sons, guaranted that they had enough income to afford a standard legionary equipment, and that people could afford many children, which was a problem in greek city states. If you read about classical and archaic Hellas, you might see how important was an issue, how many men could afford hoplite-grade armor etc. The second important thing. The Romans also used their subjugated italian former oponents manpower in their own wars. And they fought together with the Romans. With a big loyalty, even during Hannibal's adventure, most allies remained together with the Romans. The hellenistic monarchies with a totally diffrent military and political system weren't able to field such great armies, their warfare was diffrent, and required bigger amounts of money. Macedon as an ancient kingdom, populated by Macedonians was paradoxaly able to mobilize bigger chunk of population than the Seleukid Kingdom or Egypt (in this case mobilizing native egyptians - machimoi ended with a dissaster).

In 2nd century, during the first generation after the 2nd Punic War, when Rome conquered the Po Valley, there was the greates colonization action of the Republic. Many Romans who dwelled in old colonies (municipia) in Italy migrated into new roman or latin colonies in the Po Valley, which were more fertile lands. But later, after that, as there were no new conquests in Italy, and rising of new money economy in Italy, which was bad for small farmers (so many of them leave their lands and migrated to Rome), caused that problems which the Gracchi tried to solve. But as I said, before during the conquest of Italy, in Rome there were not a problem with a lack of land.

Well, I of course forgot about how plunder was important for roman soldiers, and this was a big part in that why they so loved to fight in the East, and there were problems with organizing armies to boring, bloody campaings in Hispania.
 
The Romans would just send a new army. This is the key to why the Romans were so succesful, they just wanked themselves into greatness, by their unique military-demographic complex, which caused that they just had much more soldiers than any of their enemies. Even Hannibal who was extremaly lucky, with winning all those battles, lernt that one just cannot defeat the Roman Republic. I regard as lucky not Rome, that they won 2nd Punic War, but I regard Hannibal as a lucky guy, because he managed to do this war so long and costly for Rome. Only his genius on the battle field caused that this war wasn't ended after short time.
I think you underrate Carthage's structural strength; while Hannibal did win several impressive victories, Carthage wethered a long series of devastating defeats throughout the Punic Wars. If say the Seleucids had taken losses like the brothers Scipio's initial Spanish campaigns, losing Cissa and Dertosa in rapid succession, they probably would have folded before long. Seriously, tally up all the crushing Roman victories of the Second Punic War, and you'll find they generally outnumber Hannibal's victories. They were smashed in Spain, in Sardinia, in Sicily, in Corsica, twice in Northern Italy, then they lost three big battles on their home turf in Africa, then Hannibal of all people had to talk his city out of raising another army to battle the Romans again. I'd be really interested in seeing an AH scenario for a victorious Carthage against the Successor kingdoms of the east; to me it seems they would have had a lot of the same advantages as the Romans.
 
Why couldn't they defeat the Parthians and Germanics, then?

The Romans did defeat the Parthians, several times, and the Roman Empire would outlast the Parthian Empire by almost 300 years (1300 if you include the Byzantines). In fact, besides Crassus and Marc Antony's disastrous early campaigns, the Romans won just about every war they fought with Parthia. They were more or less compliant for the entire Julio-Claudian period, Nero beat them in the war over Armenia in the 50s, Trajan stomped them in 116, Marcus Aurelius beat them handily several times in the 160s, and the Severans reclaimed a large territory in northern Mesopotamia in the 180s and early 200s. And after that, the Parthians collapsed and the Sassanids took over. Just because they never tried to annex Parthia (Trajan's conquests notwithstanding) doesn't mean the Parthians outmatched them. It was generally viewed that a stable border with the Parthians was the best solution for both sides, so the Romans never really went in for it

EDIT: sorry for the off-topic nitpick, just thought it wasn't necessarily an appropriate analogy
 
Last edited:
Well, Eumenes of Pergamon, according to Greg Fisher, reported in 172 BCE to the Roman Senate that Perseus had "enough grain for thirty thousand soldiers, five thousand horses, and enough money to pay for ten thousand mercenaries, all for the ammount of ten years". I don't have the numbers on the Roman side to back it up, though, but the context in which Eumenes mentions it makes it seem alarming.
Perseus' actions (both real and alleged) before the conflict would also be quite expected to startle the Senate, so i would, yes, expect them to take the war seriously. Fisher, later, makes mention of the promises of both consuls in 172 BCE to turn Macedonia into a province, for example.

Source: https://www.mcgill.ca/classics/files/classics/2001-05.PDF

Again drawing from Goldsworthy, lets examine the situation from the Roman perspective. Publius Crassus, Aulus Hostilius and Quintus Philippus have all failed to defeat Perseus. The Roman armies are suffering from supply problems and the issues of operating away from Italy. Paullus, a skilled commander, is appointed to succeed the elderly and overweight Philippus. The new general is greeted with great enthusiasm and fanfare. Now Paullus, the man everyone has put their faith in, has been beaten at Pynda. Perseus, per your qoute, has plenty of supplies and is capable of continuing his efforts for the long term. So Rome is now left with the choice of appointing a fifth new commander and pulling together another army or letting Perseus have his way. Does Rome have the stomach for this? Maybe.
 
I've read that lack of horses was a key problem for the Hellenistic successor states, though I find this curious - why? Had they lost their breeding stocks, or markets?
 
Top