WI: Pearl or Min River Valley Civilizations take over China

Instead of the OTL Yellow River Valley Civilization's domination, what would happen if the Pearl or Min River Valleys took over China instead?

I can see a more maritime China, since it can afford to lose more northern provinces without being endangered.

Bonus if Champa Rice, for whatever reason, is introduced, instead of OTL rice from the Pearl River valley.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
But North China Plain is much much more larger than other area in China, this place will become most heavily populated. And the need of defence against Northern Nomad to protect North China Plain will inevitable move dynasty greatest concern to the North even if they originally born in Pearl River Valley.

Large open, well watered flat plain is simply too valuable to not become capital and center of political activity.
 
But North China Plain is much much more larger than other area in China, this place will become most heavily populated. And the need of defence against Northern Nomad to protect North China Plain will inevitable move dynasty greatest concern to the North even if they originally born in Pearl River Valley.

Large open, well watered flat plain is simply too valuable to not become capital and center of political activity.

Really? But after the introduction of Champa rice, most of the Chinese population was based in the south.

The 'POD' is that Champa Rice is introduced sooner, so the south booms as a result of the rice.
 
Really? But after the introduction of Champa rice, most of the Chinese population was based in the south.

The 'POD' is that Champa Rice is introduced sooner, so the south booms as a result of the rice.
Thing is,I highly doubt a Pearl or Min River valley civilization can take over China for the same reasons why southern dynasty are hardly able to conquer the north--they lack war horses.Other than that,it makes no sense for a capital to be far in the south.Northern territory may be less valuable than southern ones,but they are still large and valuable territory.It would be extremely difficult to direct wars against nomads in the north from a capital in the south.A capital would be preferable in the center of China.Ming Dynasty took it to the extreme by placing the capital just at the frontier.As for the north,to my understanding,it was originally extremely fertile,especially the north west,in the area around Chang'an(it's now fairly barren to my understanding)but became gradually less fertile over the years during and after the Song Dynasty by over-farming,over pioneering and climate change.
 
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Moving the capital to Beijing was a political move by the Yongle Emperor; as the prince of Yan, it was his power base, and the Hongwu Emperor had previously warned against situating the capital too far north, since it turned out to be terribly vulnerable to invaders from the North, and enthrone himself in Nanjing on the Chang Jiang. Most Chinese dynasties were based in the north since the Yellow River was the historic center of Chinese civilization, and until the construction of the Grand Canal, overland travel between the east-west running rivers of China could be an arduous process.
 
Moving the capital to Beijing was a political move by the Yongle Emperor; as the prince of Yan, it was his power base, and the Hongwu Emperor had previously warned against situating the capital too far north, since it turned out to be terribly vulnerable to invaders from the North, and enthrone himself in Nanjing on the Chang Jiang. Most Chinese dynasties were based in the north since the Yellow River was the historic center of Chinese civilization, and until the construction of the Grand Canal, overland travel between the east-west running rivers of China could be an arduous process.
That was one point,but the real advantage about Beijing was that,much like Trier and Sirmium was to the Romans,it enables the emperor to have good communication with his armies.
As for capitals in the North,Luoyang was capital because of symbolic reasons like you mentioned.Chang'an was capital because the region it's in,Guangzhong,is surrounded by narrow passes that are highly defensible.
 
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Beijing was the capital of the Jin, Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties, 3/4ths of which were conquest dynasties originating north of the Great Wall, and the Yan state, whose primary enemies were the other Warring States, not the nomads.
 
Beijing was the capital of the Jin, Yuan, Ming, and Qing dynasties, 3/4ths of which were conquest dynasties originating north of the Great Wall, and the Yan state, whose primary enemies were the other Warring States, not the nomads.
Thing is,Yongle's primary enemy were the nomads after he offed his nephew.He spent most of his reign campaigning in the north.But under normal circumstances,I think a capital in the central plains is more appropriate.I highly doubt a capital would be placed in the far south.
 
Moving the capital to Beijing was a political move by the Yongle Emperor; as the prince of Yan, it was his power base, and the Hongwu Emperor had previously warned against situating the capital too far north, since it turned out to be terribly vulnerable to invaders from the North, and enthrone himself in Nanjing on the Chang Jiang. Most Chinese dynasties were based in the north since the Yellow River was the historic center of Chinese civilization, and until the construction of the Grand Canal, overland travel between the east-west running rivers of China could be an arduous process.

Um, that's kind of the POD.

Besides, the TL isn't that Pearl or Min take over ALL of northern China. It's just that they achieve at least Southern Song heights. Sorry, should have clarified.
 
No, I get that; I was replying to darthfanta; the reason so many dynasties were based on the Yellow River in the North wouldn't apply with this POD.

Hard to predict what would happen along the other great rivers, but it'd be interesting if each one developed its own indigenous state; Huangguo in the north, Huaiguo in Anhui, Ganguo in Jiangxi, Xiangguo in Hunan, Minguo in Sichuan, Zhuguo in Guangdong. A string of smaller Yangtze states as a buffer between the Yellow River state in the north and the Pearl River state in the south.
 
No, I get that; I was replying to darthfanta; the reason so many dynasties were based on the Yellow River in the North wouldn't apply with this POD.

Hard to predict what would happen along the other great rivers, but it'd be interesting if each one developed its own indigenous state; Huangguo in the north, Huaiguo in Anhui, Ganguo in Jiangxi, Xiangguo in Hunan, Minguo in Sichuan, Zhuguo in Guangdong. A string of smaller Yangtze states as a buffer between the Yellow River state in the north and the Pearl River state in the south.

Are we forgetting Fujian here? :p :p
 
Oh, I thought you were referring to the Min river in Sichuan. I forgot Fujian even had a major river; it's quite mountainous and forested, so it doesn't make for ideal territory for state development.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
Really? But after the introduction of Champa rice, most of the Chinese population was based in the south.

The 'POD' is that Champa Rice is introduced sooner, so the south booms as a result of the rice.

Just for clarification, what I mean by 'take over China' means reaching at least Southern Song heights.

in this case, Yang Tze River Valley would still become more productive and populous than Pearl River Valley, the capital will be moved to Wuhan or Changsha sooner or later.

and North China Plain between YangTze and Huai river might still be have more people than Pearl River Delta.

Fujian and Guangdong would still be backwater, Yangtze Delta would still consider Fujian and Guangdong cities backward (just like Shang Hai always consider Hong Kong in OTL )

it might be more mercantile oriented, or it might not (river ship vs ocean ship, concern for agriculture work to reclaim the swamp, building monument using lot of labor in Yangtze) there will be inland concern in YangTze to win political attention at court.
 
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