WI/PC Use of more AC-47/AC-130 Gunships in Vietnam?

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
When reading "Harrier at War" by Alfred Price, he explained that in Vietnam most battles that either the US Army or US Marines battalions fought where lost after 30 minutes if no air support was forthcoming, 10 minutes the minimum, 20 minutes would make it a 50-50 for each side.

Due to the fact that Da-Nang airbase had a limited number of take-off's and landings because of limited runways, and US Navy air assets (Route Package) where devoted to attacks up north or "Downtown" as the fly jocks called them meant it was sometimes impossible due to the time it took for the air assets to get aloft to get air support over a specific battle within the desired 10 minutes, a so being able to defeat the Viet-Cong in a pitched battle.

What if, instead of using A-7, A-4, F-4, F-6 etc etc, US forces procured more AC-47 & AC-130 Gunships which had better loiter time and firepower than a say a squadron of fast jets.

Would replacing say half the fast jet complement with gunships be better?

How would this improve the conduct of the search and destroy missions against the Viet-Cong?

Would it affect the overall conflict?

Cheers filers
 
Wouldn't the North Vietnamese Sams and fighters have a much better chance at shooting them down?
The AC-130 is an aircraft to use under air supremacy, which the USA didn't enjoy over Vietnam
 
Wouldn't the North Vietnamese Sams and fighters have a much better chance at shooting them down?
The AC-130 is an aircraft to use under air supremacy, which the USA didn't enjoy over Vietnam

Gunships never went North of the DMZ that I could determine, even for pilot recovery, and SA-2 were too limited in range.

Migs never crossed into Laos or South Vietnam.
 
Wouldn't the North Vietnamese Sams and fighters have a much better chance at shooting them down?
The AC-130 is an aircraft to use under air supremacy, which the USA didn't enjoy over Vietnam

The US surely did have air supremacy over South Vietnam. Too the best of my knowledge, no US ground forces engaged either the Viet Cong or NVA on North Vietnam soil.
Yeah, you wouldn't send Spookie into North Vietnam but then there is no need.

For the OP, the USAF had bases all over South Vietnam and the US Army had its helicopter gunships based throughout the country as well. So it's hard to imagine a place where ground forces couldn't be reached in 30 minutes. Now poor weather might prevent aircraft from taking off, the Crachin often made flying tough in the Spring.
 
Due to the fact that Da-Nang airbase had a limited number of take-off's and landings because of limited runways, and US Navy air assets (Route Package) where devoted to attacks up north or "Downtown" as the fly jocks called them meant it was sometimes impossible due to the time it took for the air assets to get aloft to get air support over a specific battle within the desired 10 minutes, a so being able to defeat the Viet-Cong in a pitched battle.

There were more airbases than just Danang. There were at least 10 major Airbases that supported the tactical air war in Vietnam. There were also several outside the Country (primarily in Thailand).

Also there were two major naval flight area off Vietnam. Yankee Station supported the war in North Vietnam (and some work in I Corps area of South Vietnam). Dixie Station supported the war in South Vietnam. The general cruise rotation was for carriers to go to Dixie Station first since the operations were somewhat less stressful and provided a reasonable workup.

I have never heard that air support was limited by takeoff or landing slots at the bases. Scheduling, Bomb Shortages, politically based limitations or bombing halts affected availability but I don't think I have ever heard of support not being available because they couldn't get off the runway. Often there were aircraft on 'strip alert' ready to take off if needed for a hot situation.

The limitations of gunships was as much accuracy as anything else. The sighting systems were not the great night vision devices available today Sometimes it was a grease pencil mark on a windscreen for the pilot to use or a matter of 'walking' the rounds into the target. I don't have the distances to 'troops in contact' available but I believe the Gunships generally required greater distances than traditional CAS. (The type of armament used also factored into closeness allowed). There was a LOT of research done during those years into how to improve CAS. If you can find a copy check out 'Air Power in Three Wars' Originally a limited publication within the US Air Force but is now available as a PDF. It is an excellent survey of the development of Tactical Airpower culminating in the Vietnam air campaign

The Air Force has a very good website with books and other documents about Vietnam
http://www.airforcehistory.af.mil/50th-vietnam/
 
Gunships never went North of the DMZ that I could determine, even for pilot recovery, and SA-2 were too limited in range.

Migs never crossed into Laos or South Vietnam.

I'm not sure I can support such broad statements but am also sure I cannot provide good sources on a public forum
 
I just finished scanning a tad of the AC-119 website, noting that the -G and -K models of AC-119 did serve as interim gunships, and mention was made of SA-2 and SA-7 on the trail in '71/'72.
 

WILDGEESE

Gone Fishin'
Sorry about the confusion filers, what I meant was air operations over South Vietnam only in support of ground forces.

Regards
 
Too the best of my knowledge, no US ground forces engaged either the Viet Cong or NVA on North Vietnam soil.

Well, there was Operation Ivory Coast which saw US ground forces (a detachment of Special Force elements) engage someone on North Vietnamese soil in 1970. Officially, the enemy force engaged and killed NVA forces occupying the empty compound that was Son Tay prison camp, but there is some reason to believe Chinese soldiers may have been training there as well.
 
Gunships are just that, ships with guns. They proved to be vulnerable, and underwent improvements to maximize range and targeting systems, eventually resulting in a weapon that operates at night. There are situations where they work best, and conditions where one needs nape and bombs in addition to 20 mike-mike. Early gunships were part of the development process, not the ultimate outcome. It's much like saying the RAF should have made more Fairey Battles. In the end, at no point are gunships the ultimate answer for general ground attack, but rather just another weapon in the arsenal.
 
Got Me

Well, there was Operation Ivory Coast which saw US ground forces (a detachment of Special Force elements) engage someone on North Vietnamese soil in 1970. Officially, the enemy force engaged and killed NVA forces occupying the empty compound that was Son Tay prison camp, but there is some reason to believe Chinese soldiers may have been training there as well.

I was thinking long-term operations, not a couple hour raid. Meaning we did not invade North Vietnam and try to hold ground long-term. I'm sure there are probably some more Black Ops in North Vietnam that we have never heard about.
 
Might gunships been of use in cooperation with bombers using cluster bombs around the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Night optics may not have been up to the deed so I may be wrong.
 
Might gunships been of use in cooperation with bombers using cluster bombs around the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Night optics may not have been up to the deed so I may be wrong.

Was effective with that in missions over Cambodia
 
Well, there was Operation Ivory Coast which saw US ground forces (a detachment of Special Force elements) engage someone on North Vietnamese soil in 1970. Officially, the enemy force engaged and killed NVA forces occupying the empty compound that was Son Tay prison camp, but there is some reason to believe Chinese soldiers may have been training there as well.

I heard about it before, though it's in Vietnamese (and as I haven't read any source from USA, I cannot confirm or deny "our" source). Things went as below:
- The raid (Ivory Coast) aimed to rescued PoW (downed pilots) in a prison camp. Mission failed due to shear "karma": the prisoners were moved roughly a month before operation to avoid flooding.
I recall that some source also site we even know about this operation and plan an ambush (the heat signature of the soldiers were misinterpreted as prisoners). However, after a significant time and still no sight of US, the troops withdrawn

- The "garrison force" of VPA (as "standard" force, aimed to protect a region) is reported to be 12000 (unconfirmed by Vietnamese government as I know). US Spec-Op deployed 56 soldiers, 92 pilots and 29 planes.

- Total casualties as follow
+ US: 1 helicopter destroyed (to prevent enemy captured), 1 aircraft downed. Unknown/unconfirmed loss in "distraction prong" (attack in Hai Phong harbor)
+ Vietnam:
5x workers at a political school (a mis-placed landing of a chopper) [civilian]
6x workers at said prison camp
4x civilian (a family - and 3 of them were under 18)

Oh, and NO Chinese was there. Our leaders at that time were very nationalist (especially Le Duan, Secretary of VCP, he refused a ship of 500 trucks from China, just because Chinese wanted to send their drivers with)

Source:
Wikipedia_English
Wikipedia_Vietnamese
Ambush information (scroll down to the last part, try copy and paste to Google translate if you want)
"Son Tay never forgets what US Spec-op soldiers have done" (5th in a part of a series)
 
Might gunships been of use in cooperation with bombers using cluster bombs around the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Night optics may not have been up to the deed so I may be wrong.

They did show their effectiveness in the early period (70~71). Hell, they account for more than 50% of our truck lost on Ho Chi Minh Trail.

But you know, we are Vietnamese. AC-130 proves its worth in the night, hence, to nullify its power, we went under board sunlight (or more precisely, under well-camoflaued roads in the day).

In addition, we also introduced some methods to actively scare the sh&t out of AC-130s (though the effectiveness remains to be seen)
- Extra "SPAAG" in the convoy (1 23mm anti-air gun on a truck chasis)
- Stationary 57mm anti-air guns at key positions (later supported/replaced by SAM-2 units)
- Tweaking some H-6 Chinese missiles so that instead of "long travel", we have "high travel"
- Attach K-13 (missiles used on MiG-21) on L-29 planes with the prime target is AC-130 (though personally, I haven't heard if this is actually used, or even see any action)

And the key part was portable anti-air missile SA-7 (first kill in June 72). Two kills were claimed by SAM-2 (March 71 and October 1972), 1 was claimed by 37mm crew (December 1971). In total, VPA claimed 8 AC-130 killed (all variant) in 18 of US.

Source:
SA-7 confirmed kill
"How to defeat the Spectre"
Chat about AC-130 While this link is a nightmare to use translation program (it'll fail, trust me), there are some interesting photo on here about the gunship operations
 
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Gunships were great again st targets where there were not friendly troops in contact such as the Ho Chi Minh Trail and logistic targets near US forces but where definite separation existed. putting a safe zone around a well documented firebase is straight forward, putting ordinance on enemy attacking a patrol in the field is something different. conventional CAS was better at the time for that.
 
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