WI/PC: A Christian Japan

[phil03]

As it says on the title. I am far from an expert on either element of the topic (History of Christianity and History of Japan) but the sheer contrast between the significant headway made by the Jesuits in Japan compared to the overall poor results (to the best of my knowledge aniway) in the rest of East Asia is enough to make me quite curious regarding such a scenario.

Would it be possible for Japanese Christianity to both take political and eventually represent a majority of the population? How would such an ATL develop politically, culturally and in other aspects? Alternatively, would a Christian Japanese based in Kyushu have any plausible chance of happening if the conversion of Japan as a whole is too much to plausibly consider?

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

Yes. The Christian revolt has to receive much greater support from European powers.

Shimabara Rebellion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Though Christianity in Japan will not be the same ad in Europe. It will be as distinct as Buddhism in Tibet is from Buddhism in Japan

 

[phil03]

Yes. The Christian revolt has to receive much greater support from European powers.

Shimabara Rebellion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Though Christianity in Japan will not be the same ad in Europe. It will be as distinct as Buddhism in Tibet is from Buddhism in Japan

I was thinking of an earlier POD but this is definitely interesting. How would they get the assistance needed tough?

And of course, to stick it would need to bebe massively different from its european counterpart, with quite probably some significant syncretism involved in due time.

 

[Dan1988]

Would it be possible for Japanese Christianity to both take political and eventually represent a majority of the population? How would such an ATL develop politically, culturally and in other aspects?

One could work around the Church of the East, as it adapted to Chinese culture, and have that be one of Japan's imports from Tang dynasty China. This 'Sinified' Christianity could then be adapted further to meet Japanese sensibilities to serve as a base for further expansion. (And more good news for the expansion of Syriac script, due to the use of Aramaic in this denomination of Christianity, alongside "orthodox" Chinese characters.)

 

[Otto Kretschmer]

For an even earlier PoD you may have Christians from India or the Middle East to end up in Japan. Indian Christians are the best option. They should end up on Tang China and then in Japan not much later.

OFC this Christianity will be as distinct from European Christianity as Russian Orthodoxy is from US megachurches.

 

[phil03]

For an even earlier PoD you may have Christians from India or the Middle East to end up in Japan. Indian Christians are the best option

I was thinking more of having Japanese Christians get more political influence and/or convert more people during the Sengoku Era, but earlier PODs are interesting too!

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

As it says on the title. I am far from an expert on either element of the topic (History of Christianity and History of Japan) but the sheer contrast between the significant headway made by the Jesuits in Japan compared to the overall poor results (to the best of my knowledge aniway) in the rest of East Asia is enough to make me quite curious regarding such a scenario.

Would it be possible for Japanese Christianity to both take political and eventually represent a majority of the population? How would such an ATL develop politically, culturally and in other aspects? Alternatively, would a Christian Japanese based in Kyushu have any plausible chance of happening if the conversion of Japan as a whole is too much to plausibly consider?

The moment that Japanese leaders got the idea that Christianisation was the gaijin building a fifth column by which they could annex Japan, it was pretty much doomed IMO.

It's also highly likely that Japanese Christianity would end up being quite different to European. IIRC, the Jesuits had attained their success by presenting Christianity in terms that the Japanese would understand, and by the 1600s Kirishtans had quite a few beliefs that were very different to the mainstream: the idea that Adam and Eve were created at the same time rather than Eve being created from Adam; Deusu having multiple names; the kami being angels...

 

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Matteo Ricci in China made a lot of headway - but needed a few exemptions - like changing robe colours, and allowing a version of ancestor veneration within the Catholic rite. The Pope shut him down hard. And then the Jesuit mission cratered.

 

[GameBawesome]

I’ve said this a lot in previous threads, because I believe one of the many PODs that Christianity dominates half of Japan.

There is one particular person I read and admire from Japanese history, who 1) was open to Westerners and actually was fascinated by them, 2) Sponsored the the first Christian church in Kyoto, 3) came to dominate half of Japan

I am, of course, talking about Oda Nobunaga

(Yes, I know Oda Nobunaga didn’t convert to Christianity and only did it to get access to guns, but still, if the Oda Clan controlled all of Japan, remained in power and open to Westerners, Christianity could’ve flourished.)

 

[phil03]

I’ve said this a lot in previous threads, because I believe one of the many PODs that Christianity dominates half of Japan.

There is one particular person I read and admire from Japanese history, who 1) was open to Westerners and actually was fascinated by them, 2) Sponsored the the first Christian church in Kyoto, 3) came to dominate half of Japan

I am, of course, talking about Oda Nobunaga

(Yes, I know Oda Nobunaga didn’t convert to Christianity and only did it to get access to guns, but still, if the Oda Clan controlled all of Japan, remained in power and open to Westerners, Christianity could’ve flourished.)

I might spouting nonsense here but in a scenario where an Oda Shogunate becomes a thing could Nobunaga become something a ''Constance Chlore'' figure, aka a figure who, while not christian himself, would definitely have been friendly to and protected them and would have set the stage for one of his close descendants to convert, bringing the political apparel with him?

 

[Dan1988]

For an even earlier PoD you may have Christians from India or the Middle East to end up in Japan. Indian Christians are the best option. They should end up on Tang China and then in Japan not much later.

OFC this Christianity will be as distinct from European Christianity as Russian Orthodoxy is from US megachurches.

While an Indian perspective would probably be welcome, for the most part Indian Christians are, by and large, no different from the Church of the East (except with some disputes over the exact definition of the humanity and divinity of Jesus, which eventually became a moot issue) - and, IIRC, the Middle Eastern option is basically what the Church of the East did IOTL minus the Japanese expansion I mentioned earlier.

 

[schai]

If Japan had been christianized, it would become another Philippine. I doubt there would be a Meiji reform.

 

[Quinkana]

If Japan had been christianized, it would become another Philippine. I doubt there would be a Meiji reform.

Why? Japan wasn’t colonised is that it was quite far away from the other colonising powers and there wasn’t much resources that Japan could offer. I think even with a Christian Japan (maybe with an Oda Shogunate) the most the European polities could do is react to politics, considering Japanese armies at that time were equipped with state of the art guns and just fought the Sengoku wars, meaning that the Japanese were just as effective as European armies at least.

 

[kasumigenx]

If Japan had been christianized, it would become another Philippine. I doubt there would be a Meiji reform.

Japan would be like OTL China/Korea if it kept a large Christian population.

 

[Comte de Dordogne]

Yes. The Christian revolt has to receive much greater support from European powers.

Shimabara Rebellion - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Though Christianity in Japan will not be the same ad in Europe. It will be as distinct as Buddhism in Tibet is from Buddhism in Japan

I had made a discussion more or less about this. From what I remember the Shimabara revolt comes at the wrong time and is too late to see a Christian Japan.

No Catholic persecution in Japan: How is Christianity and Japan developing in the Far East?

Let's imagine that Shimabara Rebellion is not a mile away. The Shogunate does not see Catholicism and the Europeans as a vector of troubles and does not start to prohibit and persecute Catholicism. How is Christianity developing in Japan? Moreover, how does Japan develop by not reinforcing its...

www.alternatehistory.com

 

[Phalamus]

I am extremely sceptical of most Christian Japan scenarios.

The reason why the Jesuits found initial success in the late Sengoku period was because small lords in southern Kyushu had an interest in attracting Portuguese traders, as they brought valuable products such as firearms and Chinese goods. Attracting traders met patronising christianity, and outright converting was even more effective, so Catholicism was able to gain a stronghold on this region for a short while. In some ways, this situation is similar to the islamisation of maritime South East Asia, which was similarly trade driven. However, it was a very localised and ephemeral state of affairs. By Nobunaga's time, Japan's domestic firearms production was the largest in the world, and Chinese goods could be acquired without intermediaries through the red seal ships. So, by the time that christianity was banned, the incentive for conversions had pretty much disappeared, and that would be the case in pretty much any scenario where Japan still unified, so christianity would have remained stagnant even if it had survived.

In my opinion, a Christian Japan would only be possible in a contrived TL where the Sengoku period lasted much longer, with European trade retaining its early importance and possibly even with Portuguese and Spanish naval participation in some conflicts. That could give you some more Christian daimyos after a while. Then they would have to get Nobunaga levels of luck to unify Japan and create a Christian shogunate...

 

[mrmandias]

I’ve said this a lot in previous threads, because I believe one of the many PODs that Christianity dominates half of Japan.

There is one particular person I read and admire from Japanese history, who 1) was open to Westerners and actually was fascinated by them, 2) Sponsored the the first Christian church in Kyoto, 3) came to dominate half of Japan

I am, of course, talking about Oda Nobunaga

(Yes, I know Oda Nobunaga didn’t convert to Christianity and only did it to get access to guns, but still, if the Oda Clan controlled all of Japan, remained in power and open to Westerners, Christianity could’ve flourished.)

If Oda or his successors see the potential in using the Christian ecclesiastical hierarchy as an alternate method of control and a way of getting a loyal civil service, then you might get the same sort of situation as the barbarian kings in Europe converting to Christianity. Or the Roman emperors.

You could have a situation where for a few generations Christianity receives state support but isn't official, and then a Shogun makes it official.

Even more likely if the Shogun wants a reason to assume absolute power and do away with the Emperor, say in a situation where rebellious daimyo are casting themselves as defenders of the Emperor against the Shogun usurper. Then the Oda Shogunate might see Christianization as a justification for abolishing the Imperial institution.

 

[Duke Andrew of Dank]

I think the closest one can realistically get would be a Catholic minority that makes up the third largest religious population in Japan.

 

[Nivek]

Dudes, oda hated religious wackos, whatever buddhist or catholics he will allow either become powerful to be a threat, so oda being pro catholic is asb dudes

 

[GameBawesome]

Dudes, oda hated religious wackos, whatever buddhist or catholics he will allow either become powerful to be a threat, so oda being pro catholic is asb dudes

True, the Oda clan wouldn’t covert themselves, and would probably control the religion of Japan for a long time, keeping watch on various Christian Daimyo and Buddhist Monks. However, Japan would still have a large Kirishitan population that could possibly flourish, compared to OTL Tokugawa suppression of the Kirishitan